Electrical enigma

[Guest 000]

I have a small electrical issue on board, only a problem in that it drives me crazy because I don't know what's going on...

The engine drives a 56 amp alternator which charges via a VSR firstly a new start battery and then an 85amp\hr house battery of uncertain age but in good condition. I have a 30watt solar panel connected to a regulator and then to the house battery. We use very little power so both batteries are nearly always fully charged. The engine instrument panel contains warning lights for charging and oil pressure, and gauges for temperature and revs. These are powered from the ignition switch and the normal engine mounted senders. The rev counter takes its input from the alternator.

All very standard.

When motoring all engine instrument behave normally,ie lights unlit, gauges reading correctly, except, for when the sun is shining on the solar panel in which case the temperature gauge and the rev counter drop to zero. The lights do not illuminate. Cover the panel or turn it away from the sun and both gauges instantly revert to a normal reading.

Very peculiar!

I overcome this by covering the panel before starting the engine, but of course I'd rather not have to.

Any ideas??

[Island Time 1,235]

Sounds like the reverse current protection on the solar panel/controller has failed - or was never there! What is the model of the solar controller?

[erice 732]

so when the solar panel is outputting current 

 

your engine oil temp gauge and tachometer drop back to zero

 

has the system ever worked correctly?

 

has anything been changed since they worked correctly?

 

it sounds like the solar panel could be connected in reverse somewhere

 

with a digital voltmeter i would first confirm which terminal of the panel is + and - when sunny

 

and then follow those through the regulator to the battery

 

also bad earths can cause screwy things

 

using the ohms tester on the meter check the earths on the engine, inst. panel and batteries are all well connected 

[Guest 000]

The solar equipment was supplied by Cellpower Ltd in Napier, and the regular goes by the splendid oriental name of 'Fangpusun.'

Has it always done that? I'm embarrassed to admit that I don't know. My instrument panel sits behind a panel in the cockpit and I hardly ever looked at it - I just always kept an eye on the exhaust cooling water. I check it all the time now, though. Good point on all the earths, I will check with my multi Meter.

[wheels 543]

Firstly, Make sure the Solar Panel Negative Output is NOT connected to Earth ANYWHERE other than the Negative terminal of the Solar reg input.
You must have a 2 core cable going all the way from panel to the Solar regulator for both the + and the - of the panel. The Solar regulator Negative output MUST go to the Negative terminal on the battery, which can be the main Negative Bus Bar of a Wiring panel if the cable to Batt is heavy enough. Most all Solar Regs have both the Neg input and the Neg output linked inside the Reg and that is OK. But I have seen and have even read one instruction manual once, that suggeste the Panel Neg was run directly to the battery terminal, as well as the Reg neg output to the Battery terminal. That is bad and a big no no and so just in case, I thought I would mention it.
Both Batteries Negative terminals MUST be linked together AND that Link MUST go to one common point on the Engine. Which is normally the bolt mounting the Starter Motor to the engine, but a Bolt near the Alternator is also OK and IMV, may actually be a better place than the Starter. Won't go into the reasoning here.
Secondly and of equal importance, yes check all Earths. Earths are the most common issue and they can cause all sorts of very strange gremlins to come out and play.

CellPower are a very good company and know there stuff and don't tend to supply junk. The reg may have a funny name, but they won't muck around with something that is junk. It is possibly a Cheaper unit they have sourced to meet a lowend budget for many, but at the same time, they don't sell cheap just to be cheap.

 

[Island Time 1,235]

Provided its all connected correctly, as per Wheels post,  I'd try another solar controller.

[Guest 000]

I should add that this dropping to zero of the rev counter and temp gauge only manifests itself in full sunlight and when both batteries are fully charged. If either the engine or house battery are charging via the panel\alternator, the guages read normally until 13.8v is reached on both batteries, at which point they drop to zero until the panel is covered or turned away from the sun.

[Variant 2]

Sounds like maybe your gauges are powered directly by the alternator. When the solar panel is working it is raising the sense voltage for your alternator's regulator, effectively shutting down the output of your alternator and there is no reverse path for current from batteries to the guages due to regulator? or diode?

[wheels 543]

OK, if things change at 13.8V, then I suggest it is something to do with the way the Batteries are connected, or that your gauges maybe connected with some to the House Batt and some to the Start. The VSR is of course, switching out at 13.8V. I would check that all your gauges are being powered by the same Battery and that Battery being the Engine start Batt. As I also said above, make sure the two Batteries have their Negative Terminals linked and that the Neg is connected to the engine Block.
      The other wire to check is that the ALT sense wire is connected to the Correct position, that when the VSR diconnects, it doesn't also connect the sense wire and turn off the ALT, which is why the Rev Counter stops.

     I have said this before, but I don't like VSR's. Your Battery being disconnected will NEVER reach full charge using a VSR. A battery will only reach a full charge if it is is charged with 14.4V (for an FLA Batt type) The VSR switces out at 13.8, which means it will only ever be charged to about 75% at best, but often it is far below that, because the ALT will lift a battery voltage to above 13.8V in very short time and switch out before the Batt has ever been allowed to reach a full charge.

[Guest 000]

Thank you for the replies and all the good info.

I can see that I will be busy with my multimeter following the above advice, but not for a little while. After three months away cruising my beloved doesn't like being home in the house and has organised a bicycle ride for us from Barcelona to Amsterdam - at least this ride is not over the Alps like the one we did a couple of years ago. So I will have to train my butt off trying to find my fitness back, which means the boat will have to care for herself for a little while. This electrical issue will be the first job went we come home and in the meantime something to mull over.

[wheels 543]

Don't leave it too long because if the the little ergs the Panels are creating are traveling via a scenic route to the Battery, your anodes could well be sent to an early and quick grave, and then the Prop may soon follow.

[Guest 000]

I think that I am OK there. I took a lot of care with the panel/regulator installation. Eg all cabling is heavy duty double insulated tinned copper and cable runs are inside pipes with drop loops every 50cm or so on the horizontal runs. The pole on which the panels are mounted as well as the regulator are insulated from the hull. In the two years that the panel has been up, the anodes are showing only minimal fizzing.

Wheels, did your new mast go up OK? I'm trying to remember how long ago it was....

[wheels 543]

OK, so installation can be ruled out then. I didn't realise it had been on the boat for so long. I thought it may have been a recent thing. So a poor earth somewhere is most likely the suspect.

Yes the mast install was a few years back now. Time so flies. It was stepped OK, but that was about where the good part of the install ended. The Job was rather average. It was not done how I asked and work and equipment fitted that I never asked for and in the end, we had a massive argument and battle over the price. A $5K estimate of stepping and using second hand fittings ended up blowing out to $18K without the guy ever telling me till the end of the job. Well end isn't quite right either. Because we came to a final agreement of what I would pay and he needed to supply some Line, fit a Baby stay, which I told him I never wanted right from the begining. The issue was that the design of the rigging ended up being such that the mast pumps something horrific and we had to fit a baby stay to pull and bend the mast foward and stop it. But we also needed running backstays to pull back from the baby stay termination point. It was all getting really messy and difficult to work with and the really annoying part is that my Headsail is damn near impossible to tack across, so I now have to furl it in, tack and then unfurl again. The Headsail also catches on the terminal at the first spreader and I have torn it that many times now. I now have leather wrapped around the terminal to stop it from happening.

Then one day when my Wife is winching me up the mast, the Winch came completely out of the mast. Thankfully the halyard was running through a clutch. I told the Rigger and his reply was "well I suppose if that is all that went wrong on a job that size, it's not too bad".
In the end he sent a rude Email that I still owed some money and I replied saying I was still waiting for the job to be finished and that in fact what I owed him was far less than the stay and the line he was supposed to supply, so I guess the balls in your court, I said. I never saw him again. He never completed the job.

[wheels 543]

I do need to add though, the Boat has been transformed in it's sailing ability with having the right mast and it doe smake the boat look smart. Very glad I did it, even if we did have such a drama.

[Black Panther 1,586]

Oh Dear I was reading that in a hurry and saw Rigger, not The Rigger, which caused a huge double take. So much difference in three words.

[wheels 543]

Oh yes, sorry, The Rigger Dude, not our wonderful Crew org member rigger.

[Guest 000]

Wheels, glad that mast turned out OK for you.

I remember loading it on the deck of my ship for transportation to you and had wondered how it all turned out. Didnt it have a slight bend in it - i hope we didnt do that..How long ago was it, time flies especially at my age. I retired almost immediatey after and wife and I went off cruising for a few years in the Cav 39, so have been out of touch. We finished with the cruising life, sold the boat and settled down to a 'normal' life in Whangamata until my beloved woke up one morning and decreed 'I want another boat.' Hence the H28 with a whole new set of issues with which to keep the forum busy for years to come.

[wheels 543]

Chris, I was hoping it was you. I owe you such a huge thanks for all your help on that. I have never forgotten about you and often wondered how your travels were going.
The entire Mast saga was an adventure from beginning to end. We steamed across to Wellington to pick the mast up and ended up in huge and horrible seas off Karori Rk. I now know all about arrival timming for slack water for that area. It was funny having a 17m mast tied along a 14m deck. I had concerns about the Rigger from the day we dropped the mast off. He charged me $150 just to walk the mast across the yard and hang it up in his Loft. It hung there for a year while trying to save up the money to step it.

The mast was a Selden that had come in on an Elan and it had been damaged on arrival. Just a small dent that we were able to press out and we were able to bolt a spread plate over the dent area. So it worked out well. Sadly I did have a little issue with the transport of the mast from Centre Port around to Seaview. The truck driver simply dragged the mast off the Deck and put a deep gouge in it, but it is up high and can't be seen from deck level.