collisions on the harbour while racing

[Guest]

Colregs don't make allowances for racing, the sailboat was sailing, if you use words like barging you only make your own prejudices apparent.

The only question is how much time did the powerboat have to get clear?

[Guest]

People mixing yacht racing rules with Col Regs warning....... again.

 

If you want to use the ISAF Yacht Racing rules to decide this you 1st must decide if the powerboat was there as an 'official boat'. If it was then the powerboat is an 'Official Boat' under the RR rules.

 

As far as I can find out there is nothing official from ISAF saying it has to be notified but equally there is nothing saying it won't be. About all I can find is that in all the SI templates ISAF do have a section which relates to 'official boats', which explains to the competitors what boats there will be, what they look like, what signals they may use and where on the track you are likely to see them.

 

As far as I can find there was no section like that in this YC's SI's for this event.

 

So if you decide it is an 'Official boat' you can apply RR rules to it all. If you decide it wasn't an Official Boat the RR rules have absolutely NOTHING to do with the incident and ONLY the Col Regs apply.

 

Take that a step further for those (I'm just playing devils advocate here) who think it was perfectly fine for the powerboat to arrive like it did in a pretty much totally unannounced way. What would you say if that boat suddenly stopped in front of you 1/2 way down a high speed bit on the edge of control downhill side? You couldn't get out of the way quick enough without a massive wipe-out and bounced off the side of it. Would the powerboat be in the right or wrong? I would suggest it would be wrong and don't really see much difference between that scenario and this hypothetical situation.

 

I think the lessons to be learnt from this are many, for the yacht involved, the powerboat involved and the YC itself. There seems to be a multitude of places that could have been tweaked that would have made this a lot clearer and cleaner for everyone involved...... Oh, and us lot

 

I think one of the biggest contributing factors seems to be a lack of experience or knowledge of multis by the power boats crew. If they had a clear understanding of the speed of multis and had seen a lot of starts, by any and all race yachts, they just wouldn't have been where they were at the time. They would have known they were very much in the firing line should a pushed start happen, which it did. What the yacht did isn't that uncommon and I would have though have been something an experience patrol boat crew should be well aware to expect or at least allow for, especially as it arrived in a semi-random way. That para is assuming there is/was no official boats notification in the SI's.

 

Another is you multi dudes do need to make some allowance for those more leaner orientated or use to leaners. The speed and acceleration differences are usually large and if you don't know that sh*t like this could and obviously can happen. Just slow the f*ck down and don't f*ck your starts will ya

 

So the powerboat was wrong, take the crew out the back and shoot them. Just kidding Brucey

If you decide it was an 'Official boat', sorry Rod-boy but can we have your wallet before they shoot you? It would be nice of you to shout the bar at your wake Should I be kidding Brucey?

 

So who would regard it as reasonable to call the powerboat an 'Official boat'? Personally I'd like to but are struggling a bit to do so in this case.

Maybe RB needs to push the point so we all know, it does appear to be a very hazy area when sussing the rules and regs or lack there of.

[johnk 0]

I was there watching this all unfold from to a bit behind and slightly to leeward

ie below the pin layline (it wasnt our best start)

I have stayed out of it until now but barging was the cause and combined with a naive belief that there will be a gap , others will relinquish luffing rights and let you in contributed too

The RIB was sitting in a less than ideal position slightly course side of or on the line and outside to windward of the pin, stationary and out of the way provided all boats started between the boat and the pin. Not sure if they were photo boat, assisting call the line or viewing the start while waiting to follow the fleet as safety boat

3 or 4 boats were above pin lay and barging to various degrees,about 4 or 5 boats lenghts back from the line but all aiming to fit inside the pin, suddenly with maybe 20 seconds or less to go they all sheet on and beam reach for the same gap. The leeward boat of the group with rights calls the bargers up trying to protect his favoured start and yes a couple of boats that 10 seconds ago were heading between the bouy and the boat ( easterly heading) now acceelrate and change course to the north north east, a couple go above the pin, one over it and one hits the RIB that had no show to get out of the way

They tried to get out of there and in doing so may have actually made it worse.

The cause was 3 or 4 boats barging suddenly having to alter course tokeep clear of a right of way boat luffing

In effect these bargers actually decided to avoid those luffingso as to obey the racing rules , avoid the protest room and not hit there mates in the multi fleet and prefered to hit the rib and/or the mark. They made a concious decision to avoid contact with the other racers

Now to be fair the TWU were not the only offender that was barging, and they may have been in the unluckiest place of all the boats

[Guest Rocket]

Sounds logical jk

[Bad Kitty 252]

Sounds logical jk

 

Read KM's post again, and then JK's statement of what the RIB was doing. Taking photo's or viewing the start maybe?

In any maritime NZ investigation that would give it the same status as any other power boat out there with an obligation to remain clear of the sailing vessels.

If you view it with a yacht racers perspective then yes it should never have been hit. But it was, and it was the give way vessel.

If it was full of enthusiastic volunteers then it's sad but they should be taught enough to stay the f*#k out of the way. Or even just follow the maritime regs, that would work too!

[johnk 0]

bad kitty

it was staying out of the way, in a postion that you would not expect the race boat which it was watching to get too( ie you normally start between the boat and the bouy not outside the line

the RIB was to windward of and in line with the pin

those starting at the windward end of the line were almost staionary with 20 secs to go and heading east beam reaching

they then sheeted on headed east briefly while accelerating and then altered course abruptly responding to the leeward boats luff from east to nor nor east,coming up 50 to 65 degrees all in the final 10 secs

but most importantly they changed from aiming away from the RIB passing at right angles to it to aiming right at it

the windward group of boats choose rightly to respond to the luff but in doing so created a collision so quickly the RIB had very little chance

they could have considerd the RIB an obstruction and called the leeward boat to curtail the luff

or chose to avoid contact with the RIB by fouingl the leeward boat(s) holding their course and not responding and maybe have contact with each other,

or respond more significantly and go head to wind and avoid the RIB but maybe hitting each other

the point that is being convienently missed here is the RIB was keeping clear for the entire 5 mins sequence until the last 10 seconds or so when the abrupt and sudden change of course and massive acceleration (0 to 10 knots and 50+ degrees) by 4 or so boats occurred . The RIB continued to try to keep clear once a collision became apparent even if doing so maybe made it worse

a right of way yacht doesnt get to alter course and speed that quickly ( racing rules or col regs

perhaps the RIB was an obstruction that the leeward boat shouldnt have luffed the windward boats into but those windward boats were barging all trying to mget the glamour start, and they could have bailed out sooner like we did ( which is why we didnt get the best start)

there seems to be an feeling the RIB needs to anticpate and think ahead as to what could happen , fair enough so to those starting

[johnk 0]

to be honest it was poor seamanship from all involved

[Guest Brucey]

Why do you all keep trying to justify such piss poor seamanship? There is no doubt in my mind who is morally and legally at fault here.

 

And barging is common in Multi starts, remember BOI regatta if you were there.

 

You don't have to start on one hull at 20knts every time, you hold the throttle in your hands. No the other hand!

 

If it's so cut and dried when is the maritime hearing coming up RB?

[Guest]

10 seconds isn't a lot of time when you think about it.

 

Even jamming the throttles on the rib into full ahead woouldn't achieve much and could have accentuated the problem.

[Guest Rocket]

I got a clear picture from your description jk. As far as I can see a club rib is an official boat. I haven't seen a start lately where there wasn't boats sitting outside the pin.

 

Without the club boats you don't have a race guys-maybe there is a bit of a different culture showing here -a culture that thinks races just happen and that it is all about the race boats.

 

Take a deep breath and read jk's description of the incident can you really blame the rib? At all?

[johnk 0]

you are right rocket and also the following are probably true too

 

the leeward boat didnt set out to luff anyone into another boat, the pin or the RIB

none of the 2,3 or 4 boats barging set out with the intent of deliberately not fitting through the closing gap

they probably didnt mean to barge, they were looking for the glamour start, problem was so were others and that avenue closed real quick as they accelerated and luffed

neither did they deliberately decide to hit each other , the pin or the RIB

from 30 secs out to the last 10 seconds the landscape changed quickly from being a gap they could all fit thru to one no one could

The RIB didnt say hey lets deliberately get in the way and cause a crash

and this all happened very quicklty

we were a bit back from the line, running a little late and could see it all unfold because we had the time to watch as opposed to being in the thick of it

 

surely the main thing is for all of us to learn and avoid it happening again

my concern is that some attitudes displayed here indicate that people dont understand the racing rules and or the col regs ( or common sense or decency) and there could be a repeat

[Guest]

Thinking about it, a reaching start is just about asking for a disaster, particularly if one end is favoured at all.

I think all the multis shouild move to Weiti and GH where we have intelligent courses with upwind starts

[johnk 0]

it is only asking for disaster if people barge

if everyone assesses the situation and starts below the layline (pin layline in this case ) no issue

the same can occur on a windward start if people come in above the layline and believe in the multis it happens all the time just ask Bull or brucey

[Guest]

I've been thinking the same Squid. A reaching start is always going to cause problems.

At Port Nic the clubhouse starts are always reaching, but there are no bouys so there are only immovable objects to tangle with.

Most yachties can figure out the consequences of that.

[Guest Rocket]

And it should be noted that layline means the line you can sail hard on the wind jambed up as high as you can go. Not the course you want to sail to the next mark...

 

And yes it happens in windward starts for all things that float as well as reaching starts in multis....

[Guest]

And it should be noted that layline means the line you can sail hard on the wind jambed up as high as you can go.

That's only true for upwind laylines. There are also downwind laylines which are not defined like that at all, and are harder to define because many classes of yacht (mono and multihulled) can sail deeper and slower when they need to get down to a mark... so the vmg optimised layline downwind and the 'can-sail-to-it-if-you really-have-to' layline are not the same...

[Guest Rocket]

No Kiwi Bardy you are entirely wrong and missing the point - which is why I posted it. Pre starting signal EXPECT the leeward boat to be jambed fully up squeezing you out. That is exactly why these boats were caught out - they were on their optimised vmg layline which is irrelevant pre-start. And remember it is the leeward boats proper course after the start not what the weather boat thinks is an optimised vmg layline...

[Guest]

Okay. If you say so. *shrug* Sorry for stepping onto your stage.

[Guest]

I think what Rocket means is that with a down wind start laylines become irrelivant as you can be luffed all the way, prestart.

 

By the way i believe there is talk of haveing a discussion topic on this at the next NZMYC monthly meeting.

 

Good idea, I say!

[Guest]

Then Rocket should have said that.

 

What rocket said was all laylines are defined by sailing hard on the wind. I am going to use that next time I am on a run to a leeward mark and someone invoke's 17.1 to prevent me carrying them past the layline. I will reply "You need to study Rocket's theorem of laylines. There is no such thing as a layline to a leeward mark."

 

Brilliant. Inspired even.

 

My comment was not intended to imply that downwind laylines applied in this case. I never said that. I was just pointing out that defining a layline as the angle at which you can sail hard on the wind to a mark (or point) is fine for upwind laylines, but upwind laylines are a subset of all laylines and that definition does not apply for all laylines.

 

But apparently I am wrong. Sorry, not just wrong, but entirely wrong.