collisions on the harbour while racing

[Guest Rocket]

No we were discussing the layline to the pin at a start. Go back and read what I said ...

 

On the boats I sail on when we are talking laylines to the pin and the boat we are talking the close hauled course - when pinching hard - you can go head to wind to shut the door on someone.

 

I think this discussion is slowly uncovering the cause...

[Guest]

I think this discussion is slowly uncovering the cause...

Ya just gotta love an optimist

[smithy09 50]

Just found this thread. Great read! How strange to find Brucey in the middle of it.

 

After a really good read, I would say the Squadron should be apologising. Their mistake.

 

Saw similar on an opti course recently. Top mark RIB so fixated on the racing action that they hadn't noticed that they had drifted down on the top mark in the tide. Much shouting and embarrassed RIB driver finally got clear of the next 50 Optis charging down the starboard layline....

 

I would say that the RNZYS RIB crew were so busy watching the line action that they had forgotten to look upwind. Their bad...

 

Having said that, getting caught in "coffin corner" with nowhere to go is something I try to teach my kids not to do, but hey, sh*t happens.. It's a fine line between the perfect start, and "Bugger".

[Guest]

After a really good read, I would say the Squadron should be apologising. Their mistake.

 

Saw similar on an opti course recently. Top mark RIB so fixated on the racing action that they hadn't noticed that they had drifted down on the top mark in the tide. Much shouting and embarrassed RIB driver finally got clear of the next 50 Optis charging down the starboard layline....

 

I would say that the RNZYS RIB crew were so busy watching the line action that they had forgotten to look upwind. Their bad...

 

Perhaps Rod boy should have drawn a picture?

[Guest]

I assume you drew that Paddy - where were you at the time?

[johnk 0]

I was somewhere below "rafts stacked up above layline" wording in the disgram and to me it looks pretty right except that the RIB was probably nearer the "small arrow" coming from "squaddy rib" or the word "rib" than it is drawn. it wasnt quite bow to mark as drawn

the other very minor crrection that i would make is the paths of the boats , i feel they were initially more up the page or westerly in direction and they turned more to port than perhaps drawn

this also doesnt show the acceleration and how quickly the gap between the multis and the RIB closed

basically in the big picture it is pretty accurate

[Guest]

I assume you drew that Paddy - where were you at the time?

Didn't see the incident if that is what you mean?

Might thave been a little further down the line... sailing a clean race

 

A picture puts into perspective where the two boats were relative the pin etc.

Smithy didn't seem to grasp where and what the two boats were doing.

 

Yacht racing 'bends' and disregards the col regs in numerous situations.

The issue here is that the incident wasn't between two yachts racing?

Rather it was between a racing yacht and a official boat.

The official boat had reason to be there.

Rod boy had reason to be there.

 

They are both at fault.

From a racing point of view Rod boy is the culprit, he had zero rights to get below the pin.

From a pure col regs point of view Squady 2 had an issue (just because they are power boat).

But from a col regs point of view Rod Boy is in deep doo doos too.

From a col regs point of view he had plenty of opportunity to avaoid a collision

 

The other point that some people ignore is the speed issue.

It has been a habit of some boats to blast in at speed, pretty much with their eyes closed. and fingers crossed.

It has been nice to see the last few starts have been much better behaved. Yay!

[Guest]

Only one possible disagreement with that summary - was the RIB "officially there", I think KM had a look at the SI's and there was no mention of it.

[Grinna 2]

Errr .... why was the RIB there??? They were nowhere even close to the transit of the start line and therefore not in a position to be at all useful as official observers of the start. I was under the impression that the RIB was ON the start transit line but outside the ODM.

[johnk 0]

squid

the RIB is out there because one division has a propensity to tip over, ( i wonder which one) and it acts as rescue boat for them amd the spoties and also journeys around the course relaying progress of the fleets back to race control on evenings when a shorten course might be required, it sometimes even does the shortening

 

Even if it wasnt officially there it is entitled to view the start, sure as i have said in my other posts it wasnt in an ideal position, but it wasnt completely in the way either, what happened was the speed and change of direction of the four boat at the pin caught the RIB and TWU out

 

Dont get me wrong here while i think as far as the incident goes blame is shared by TWU and the RIB with a weighting to TWU ( maybe 75/25 or 60 /40) i also dont think either party has handled this well and wonder what might have occurred if all involved had sat down and had a beer and a chat on a no prejudice basis to explore the possible resolution

[Guest]

Only one possible disagreement with that summary - was the RIB "officially there", I think KM had a look at the SI's and there was no mention of it.

 

KM is drawing a long bow to imply that Squady 2 should be treated as a private boat.

 

Squady 2 was still in the 'safe' sector.

>Above the lay line

>Above the ends of the start line.

 

How would Squady 2's defence read?

>We were watching the start line of Wednesday Night Race XX

>We were stationary with our engines idling

>We were outside the start line pin

>We were above the possible lay line of the starting area (outside the box)

 

A catamaran approached from our aft quarter at speed (10kts +)

The catamaran was going to pass clear ahead of us.

We maintained our position

The catamaran suddenly altered course and ran us over

We tried; albeit too late to avoid the collison

 

We then rushed to the bar, called for the defibrilator, relaced overheated pacemaker batteries, told Peploe that we had a slow leak in a pontoon and then had some medicinal rumbos

[smithy09 50]

 

A picture puts into perspective where the two boats were relative the pin etc.

Smithy didn't seem to grasp where and what the two boats were doing.

 

 

No, I think I got it. Having been driving support RIBs around yacht races quite a bit, I can understand how the Squaddy RIB was distracted, but I still say, they should have been watching what was happening, and should have got out of there. The fact that the people on board probably understand yacht racing very well makes it worse. They should be anticipating any "what ifs" and keeping clear. I don't think they are 100% to blame, but they certainly contributed big time, and should have fronted up to this.

 

BUT! I wasn't there......

[johnk 0]

and paddy the guys in the RIB are not the ones refusing to communicate or the ones yelling less than sportingly to plse vacate the area and have sex

 

smithy what you say re postioniong is very fair, but they werent distracted , they were watching , it is just that it happened so quick, 10 -20 secs out all the windward end multis (plus some per paddys diagram were stationary/ sailing slowly aiming inside the ODM , then all at once they sheet on, accelerate and aim 40 degrees higher ( not the 10 or 20 paddy drew) as the leeward boat luffed

 

interstingly they choose the option to repond to the luff rather than hold course and curtail ( illegally) the leeward boats luff ( ie rather hit the RIB than each other) or call the RIB as an obstrcuction and curtasil the luff legally if they had an overlap and had started

[smithy09 50]

interstingly they choose the option to repond to the luff rather than hold course and curtail ( illegally) the leeward boats luff ( ie rather hit the RIB than each other) or call the RIB as an obstrcuction and curtasil the luff legally if they had an overlap and had started

 

That's a new and very valid point that no-one has brought up. They could have curtailed the luff by calling water for the RIB... Hadn't thought of that (but should have..)... Might have still hit the Pin, but that's not the leeward boat's problem..

[johnk 0]

or could have chosen ( illegally) not to respond to the luff, collided amongst themselves and sorted it out in the protest room and left the RIB out of it

 

sadly smithy i think it all happened so quick, ie the acceleration , the course alteration etc that someone was more than likely to contact someone, it was breezy and the barging was rampant and the luffing was determined

[smithy09 50]

I hear you Johnk.

However, the guys on the RIB should not be surprised at the sudden accelleration when the gun goes, and the resulting bedlam. That was what I was getting at regarding anticipation.. Any yacht racer knows what goes on at the start. They have the ability to move VERY quickly and I would say would be more manoevarable than the raft..

 

I still reckon they were dreaming and not paying attention, so should bear a large chunk of responsibility. I do like the calling for water idea though. Perfectly fair, even if he hit the pin...

 

Very interesting thread..

[johnk 0]

smithy a couple of points that may have a bearing

 

in most starts the fleet starts between the marks ( boat and bouy) it is the exception that boats get luffed above the boat and or the pin, so while it was a could happen event that occurred it isnt the norm, most WNR starts go off without a hitch, but it doesnt mean they dont have issues sometimes

the RIB did try to accelerate and turn away but even it with its 2 outboards wasnt quick enough , i think partly because it turned clockwise/to starboard , maybe and this is a guess with hindsight a port turn might have been better, they may also have initially tried to back out of the way so may have had the outboards turned the wrong way for when they went forward i dont know

i doubt they were dreaming/not paying attention but perhaps they hadnt anticipated what could happen to the extent they should have

[Guest]

KM is drawing a long bow to imply that Squady 2 should be treated as a private boat.

I'm drawing no bows at all. All I have done is post the Rules and Regs. In those very rules and regs there is NOTHING to say the boat could be there on Official business in a totally un-notified way. BUT equally there is also NOTHING definitive that suggests it couldn't do exactly what it did.

 

It's up to you lot to decide if you are willing to regard S2 as an Official boat or knot for this hypothetical situation. If you say No it isn't, then it is effectively no different than a private vessel stopping for a watch in which case the Col Regs apply. If you decide it is an Official boat then it becomes an 'obstacle' under the YR rules so the ISAF Rules apply. It's just that simple.

 

But here's a kicker, and this is assuming there is or was no information in the SI's, which there appears knot to be, if you do decide it is an Official boat and in doing what it did is OK you must also agree that doing the following is also OK -

- That same boat can come along and stop dead in front of you while you're doing 20kts on a downhill slide. If you hit it you are wrong.

- That same boat can sit at a mark dead smack on your racing line. If you hit it you are wrong and you can't abuse them for being in the way.

And a few other scenarios.

 

Up to you to decide if it was an official 'Official Vessel' or just some lads in a YC branded boat having a suss. It is a grey area in the Regs just as to what it's status actually is in a situation like this. If there was something in the SI's, as heavily suggested by ISAF, it would be black and white.

 

My take on it is that as there was no official notification in writing a boat may arrive like that and the ISAF does very clearly have sections in all their templates about boats like that, that if it went to a Court the chances are high the Judge may find that boat was a 'Rangi Random' rather than an 'official boat'. But then I'm no lawyer. We do have a few legal eagles here so maybe one might like to proffer an opinion on that.... even if just a best guess.

 

As a yachtie a boat arriving there isn't a biggie for me apart from the fact the crew did seem to show a lack of understanding of the performance of boats involved in the start and they did seem to be rather crap when talking lookout skills. But I bet ya big bucks they won't do it the same way again.

 

Squady 2 was still in the 'safe' sector.

Apparently knot quite

 

We then rushed to the bar, called for the defibrilator, relaced overheated pacemaker batteries, told Peploe that we had a slow leak in a pontoon and then had some medicinal rumbos

[Guest Rocket]

I think I got it right 3 pages ago

 

And as an eternal optimist I also think the problem was clear 1 page ago-you don't get to zoom in at the pin on a reach someone out there will know the game and shut the door and we have all been there and had the door shut and had to make choices I would always go for the least damage

 

And I wouldn't expect aboat outside the pin to expect me to run him over and then hope he might fix my boat. Must try to get the driver to be at the pin for the multi starts I love a good crash

[Guest Rocket]

Stereo removed