collisions on the harbour while racing

[Guest Brucey]

I continue to be flabergasted by the approach of people who seriously consider themselves qualified to comment, let alone skipper a boat in a racing situation.

 

As someone has pointed out Col Regs have nothing to do with racing until there has been a collision due to someone usually not observing the accepted protocols (read race rules).

 

Now bear with me you reason deficient sweetys, while I go down the Col Reg path for one moment.

 

If you have ever in fact experienced a race start, you will know that both the heading and speed change continually pre start, particularly if one is in close proximity to another luffing competitor. This has been reported to be the case here by both witnesses and in fact the culprit RB. When it became obvious that the skipper had neither the forsight, desire or control, the RIB attempeted to vacate, but clearly the "stand on vessel" didnt make any worthwhile attemp to avoid a collision, again by his own admision. Under Col Regs it would be like lineing up a fizzy drift fishing, looking like you were going above, then below, then above, then just nailing it and holding the fizzy responsible. Yea you would be in the right, NOT!!!

 

It is very clear in my mind who would be found 99% if not totally culpable in the TWU instance, and if certain people involved here had any real conviction the other way, they should put their money where their mouths are and take it to the Harbourmaster!!!

 

But the real issue here for me is fact that there are idiots in the start line whos situational awareness is so poor, their boat handeling so inept and their ability to foresee and pre-empt dangerous situations so non-existant they crash over bouys and stationary boats.

 

You can sit here blaming everyone else as much as you want, but there was only one boat out of control here.

[Atom Ant 0]

So... what's your point Brucey?

[smithy09 50]

I continue to be flabergasted

Enough said!

[Guest]

Boy oh boy, isn't Brucey on fire.

 

Go hard that man, even if he does contradict himself

[Grinna 2]

Hang on a moment ... I thought that Col Regs ALWAYS applied ... in ALL situations ..... no matter what! Is Brucey saying that if you're racing then the Col Regs get superceded by the racing instructions? Really?

 

BTW, in case I'm flabbergasting anyone, y'all are safe ... I don't race.

[Grinna 2]

But the real issue here for me is fact that there are idiots in the start line whos situational awareness is so poor, their boat handeling so inept and their ability to foresee and pre-empt dangerous situations so non-existant they crash over bouys and stationary boats

 

.... or fail to get the hell out of the way of a yacht that's attempting to start a race.

 

Doesn't that description apply equally to the fizz boat operator???

[Guest]

I continue to be flabergasted by the approach of people who seriously consider themselves qualified to comment, let alone skipper a boat in a racing situation.

 

 

 

I love statements like that, I always read them as "anyone who disagrees with me isn't qualified to comment".

 

There are at least two professional mariners on this thread who I know are way more knowledgeable than me who have offered their interpretation. So in your opinion are they "qualified to comment"? If so I'll go back and dig out their comments.

[Atom Ant 0]

And just when I thought this subject had been thrashed to death - like the phoenix it rises from the ashes! Stand by, I'm off to get my deck chair and chips and beers.

[Guest]

This thread is probably why our stats were so high last month!!!

[B00B00 310]

Personally I want to see 2 things-

1/ mikeys drawing of the situation, maybe in 2 or 3 different times, 30, 20 and 10 secs before the start. Just to see how he saw it and if he held his course.

2/ The original letter Mikey wrote to the squaddron, to see who started the agression and if their response was in line with the original comunication.

[Guest mental outlook]

If it was me in that RIB I would be 5-10 (RIB) lengths away from the start line so there is room for guys to bail out. As long as you are in transit with the line you can still call it. I think it is unfair on the guy in the raft not to have room to bail without running over the RIB. Barging isn't cool but will always happen on a reaching start.

Also if you are gonna be in a RIB watching a start like that it may be an idea to have the bow facing away from the start, not into it.

[Guest]

Personally I want to see two things:

A nice cold beer in my hand

A good size bucket of popcorn!

Game on.....

[Marshy 30]

Personally I want to see two things:

A nice cold beer in my hand

A good size bucket of popcorn!

Game on.....

 

Agreed, Its like flogging a dead sheep now!! Squid i reckon Mikey deserves a bottle of Mt Gay for starting this thread and getting the opinions out there about what happened so we can learn from it. And Brucey can have a crew.org.nz kick in the head for sh*t stirring.

No Wonder the site had record hits last month! 12 pages and 3477 views in one thread...

[Guest]

May I quote the very yacht Racing Rules book you, that being our beloved Brucey, are so very fond of?

 

Page 14, so knot far into it and probably within the range my 11yo can read too without losing concentration, having an attention scan measured in seconds rather than minutes. Also you'll note it's Section 1 and only sub para 2 i.e right at the very front so maybe Brucey can be excused as I'm guessing he's more just a centrefold sort of a dude

 

1.0 PURPOSE & USE

1.2 These Regulations do not replace, but rather supplement the

requirements of Maritime New Zealand and the ISAF and ORC

safety requirements for racing yachts .

MSA uses the Col Reg and have no interest in YR Rules.

 

Jump one more page to -

2.0 SKIPPER’S (MASTER’S) RESPONSIBILITY, CREW

RESPONSIBILITY

 

2.2 The Maritime Transport Act 1994 states that the master of the

vessel is at all times responsible for the safety of the vessel, the

safety of those on board, discipline on board and for complying

with all maritime rules, regulations and bylaws.

 

2.3 Neither the establishment of these Safety Regulations, their

use by Organising Authorities, nor the inspection of a yacht

under these Regulations in any way limits or reduces the

complete and unlimited responsibility of the skipper.

 

 

The rights and wrongs of this hypothetical situation do seem to be in a very grey area when talking 'legal' and I doubt there will be a solid answer unless someone pushes it in front of a judge of some type, but isn't it a pile of fun watching Brucey? f*ck yes

[Guest Brucey]

How very perceptive Squid, on the mark! And profesional mariners certainly dont have any monopoly on knowledge or common sense from my experience, reinforced again here you say?

 

 

May I quote the very yacht Racing Rules book you, that being our beloved Brucey, are so very fond of?

 

Page 14, so knot far into it and probably within the range my 11yo can read too without losing concentration, having an attention scan measured in seconds rather than minutes. Also you'll note it's Section 1 and only sub para 2 i.e right at the very front so maybe Brucey can be excused as I'm guessing he's more just a centrefold sort of a dude

 

KM, I dont have any great afinity to the YRR, but I do at least try to follow them. And sh*t page 14 for a schizophrenic, dyslexic, sociopath with ADD is a big ask but I'll do my best.

 

Now if you go back and read my post slooooowly you will see that I said "Col Regs have nothing to do with racing until there has been a collision" and yes that has happened so these Col regs come into play, and as I quoted on page 8.

 

 

22.17 Action by stand-on vessel

(1) If one of two vessels is to keep out of the way, the other must keep its course

and speed.

(2) As soon as it becomes apparent to the stand-on vessel that the vessel required

to give way is not taking appropriate action in compliance with this Part –

(a) it may take action to avoid collision by its manoeuvre alone; and

( if it is a power-driven vessel in a crossing situation, if the

circumstances of the case allow, it must not alter course to port for a

vessel on its own port side.

(3) When, from any cause, the stand-on vessel finds itself so close that collision

cannot be avoided by the action of the give-way vessel alone, it must take

whatever action will best avoid collision.

 

So note (1) and (3). Simple enough I would have thought?

 

And I repeat: "the real issue here for me is fact that there are idiots in the start line whos situational awareness is so poor, their boat handeling so inept and their ability to foresee and pre-empt dangerous situations so non-existant they crash over bouys and stationary boats."

 

And Squid if your "profesional mariners " cant grasp this I disrespectfully suggest that they are idiots.

[Grinna 2]

But Brucey, doesn't 22.17 (3) say that the stand on vessel (Squaddy 2 in this hypothetical case) needs to take action to avoid the collision? Clearly they didn't .... therefore logic would suggest that they must shoulder some responsibility for the collision?

 

And "idiots in the start line whos situational awareness is so poor, their boat handeling so inept and their ability to foresee and pre-empt dangerous situations so non-existant" also applies to the skipper of the Squaddy 2 in this hypothetical case doesn't it?

 

If not, then I'm happy to find out why not.

[Marshy 30]

Maybe the reason Brucey knows so much about how the multi's start is because he is hiding and actually just driving the chaseboat? And thats why we cant work out who he is or what boat he sails on?

[Guest Brucey]

No mate the "stand on vessel" is TWU by virtue of the fact it is sail and power gives way to sail.

 

So these 22.17 obligations were hers.

 

And before some one chimes in yes S2 did have obligations to keep clear, and by positioning herself where she did she had every reason to think she had done so. How were they to forsee such inept helming? When it became clear they tried to avoid, but it would always have been to late with TWU manuvueoring in to the line. At which point all obligations are on TWU to alter course and avoid.

 

Remember too that had S2 been anchored as they are sometimes, then all obligations the whole time would have been on TWU, and its not like that would have made any difference to the collision from RB's description of the fiasco.

[Grinna 2]

the "stand on vessel" is TWU by virtue of the fact it is sail and power gives way to sail

 

So the Squaddy 2 was the obliged vessel and should have kept clear then?

 

Remember too that had S2 been anchored as they are sometimes, then all obligations the whole time would have been on TWU

 

So does this then imply that because S2 wasn't anchored then not all obligations were on TWU (and therefore S2 was at least partly at fault)?

 

Isn't this the answer that we had way back on page 1, 2 or 3 or something??

[Guest Brucey]

Its a difficult concept Grina, but dont worry you are in good company in your confusion.

 

Stick to cruising and if I might suggest going around stationary objects rather than over them, I know you think you have the right to, but just a suggestion sweety.x