Penalty for hitting another boat

[Guest]

No one is questioning the training fleets abilities Mr Booboo. Just they were caught out once, due to some silly buggerising around on my behalf for sure, and due to that had the same thing thrown at them a few more times, out of interest due to the previous time, which also caught them out on 2 of those but knot all. As mentioned I doubt that in all 3 occasions they were the same crews and for all I know they very well may have been under some orders to just keep clear for whatever reason, except for the 1st time when the knot amused coach boat came up for a 'chat'

 

But also as mentioned they didn't fall for anything many other boats have also fallen for over the years, including one in a very large international regatta 1/2 crewed by professionals i.e. one that should have known way way better than the Youth fleet. Hopefully those few youth boats crews won't let it happen again and picked up that done well you can make boats do things they probably don't have to do, with luck they maybe able to use that to their advantage in the years to come.

 

It isn't that hard to make some boats do things they shouldn't or don't need to. We spent an hour of Simrad R2 filling in time making a boat sail a course we wanted it to and in doing so slowed it down a lot even thoiugh it was clear ahead and faster thru the water. It didn't need to, shouldn't have and would have just sailed away and crossed the line well ahead of us if they weren't so easily played with. We crossed the line in front of them purely as they were easily played, it sure wasn't boat speed. Know thy enemy and make it work to your advantage.

 

Anyway -

After extensive sussing of the rules I must sadly admit something to Mr PaulR. Ya wrong buddy

 

Snippets (edited for brevity) from 61 - Protest Requirements, Sub 61.1 Informing the protestee

- 61.1 (a) - A boat intending to protest shall inform the other boat at the first reasonable opportunity. Blaa blaa blaa.. she shall hail 'Protest' and fly a red flag until finished racing. The key there being 1st reasonable opportunity and before you go no it says hail, read on

 

- 61.1 (a) (1) - if the other boat is beyond hailing distance the boat doesn't need to but still needs to inform at 1st possible opportunity. Here is a bit of a conundrum as to the definition of 'beyond hailing distance'. Is that 100mts, 1000mts or maybe just 10mts? Boat is tacking and so has all the noise that goes along with that. One could argue that if Paul shouted just at the moment we were tacking 10mts could easily be beyond hailing distance. If any doubt was found there and I think you could muddy that area to the point there was then you'd have to fall back to inform at 1st reasonable opportunity

 

- 61.1 (a) (2) N/A in this discussion.

 

- 61.1 (a) (3) If there is damage as the result of an incident and one boat intends to protest the requirement of this rule do not apply, but she shall attempt to inform the other boat within the time limit of rule 61.3. (as stated in the SI's or within 2 hours of the last boat finishing) I'd say that is to allow crews to minimise boat damage/sinking rather than piss around with a protest flag etc. Good thinking I reckon.

 

- 61.1 ( If the RC or PC (protest Comm) are intending to protest a boat they shall inform it at the 1st reasonable opportunity or if it is due to a racing incident in the race area they must inform the boat within the time limit described in 61.3 (as above)

 

- 61.1 © a bit of a twisted one regarding protest meetings and if some other boat knot in the protest is dragged in to the protest they must advise that boat at the 1st possible opportunity.

 

So my reading of the rules suggests shouting is advised if you have the chance but I can't see anything in them that would get the protest kicked out if you didn't bar maybe if you could demonstrate the other boat did in fact hear you shout. By that I mean if Paul shouted to be Protest and I replied 'Piss off w^&#$@r!!' (the words he probably would hear ) then I think Paul may have grounds in which to push that bit harder. So the morel of the story is that if Paul shouts Protest at you just totally ignore it and claim the foredeck crews love of a good vindaloo resulting in extreme and loud flatulence made it impossible to hear anything coming in from off the boat, including Pauls ranting

[Guest]

Going back to John original question. Here I think Pauls following post is pretty much spot on.... bar the shouting bit... sometimes... maybe

 

Racing from the P flag.

Turns must be on the course so after you cross the startline.

One Penalty turn does include a tack and a gybe. Note sometimes you do have to do 2 turns depending on what you did where and occasionally by what the SI's state.

 

So if John taps a boat 3mins from the start gun and he's in the wrong he must cross the line (after the start gun) and then do his turns. In doing his turns he must knot interfere with any other boat. There is one way of reading the rules which could suggest that as soon as John has fecked up he must then keep clear of any boats that haven't i.e. go into no pushing mode keep out of everyone elses way until the start gun has gone and he's done his turn/s. I vaguely remember a protest about something similar to that and I think that if you do feck up 3mins from the gun it's best to stay clear and do your turns after then gun before pushing on... but don't quote me on that.

[johnMi 2]

KMwhat

That's what I'm looking for, do you know which rule states it needs to be on the coarse side of the startline.

 

And if so is there anywhere that says you can't go to the coarse side do your turns, go back and start afresh

[johnMi 2]

Hey, wheres the edit key gone!!

 

KM, not being rude, ignore the 'what"

[Guest]

Oh for f**ks sake, why did you make me read the rule book :)

 

You cannot do this.

Oh yes I can and I did but....... as it pans out and I sure didn't know about.... read on

Read the ISAF Casebook (Follow YNZ links).

The Casebook gives definative comments on the Racing Rules of Sailing and their interpretation.

 

Good FREE Reading!!

 

CASE 47

A boat that deliberately hails ‘Starboard’ when she knows she is on port tack has not acted fairly, and has broken rule 2.

It looks like Paul is right here and there is actually something the youth fleet can do about it in an official manner.

 

Rule 64 Decisions - 64.1 Penalties and Exonerations

blaa

blaa

blaa

64.1 (d) - If a boat has broken a rule when NOT racing her penalty shall apply to the race sailed nearest in time to that of the incident.

 

Interesting and would suggest to me that in my poorly used (as in shouldn't have written it out loud) youth fleet example, it looks like it is possible they could have protested me, even though I wasn't racing at the time but do race, for breaching Rule 2 - Fair Sailing, which is the one relating to Pauls Case 47 he quotes above. That does say play nice out there people and I'd have to admit as funny as calling the youth fleet out was, it probably was in breach of that Rule 2 i.e. knot really fair play. If the YF had protested I would have been found guilty, I would have owned up to that for sure, and so the PC could have penalised me in some form which would have then come into play the next race it entered.

 

So a few posts later we have learnt

- Paul is wrong yet also right.

- I'm an opportunistic sh*t stirrer and in doing that broke Rule 2, which I didn't know at the time or I wouldn't have done it, and that if the YF had at the time bitched on official paper I could have been doing turns or some form of penalty in the next race I started.

- John really really doesn't want too, try too or like tapping other boats in pre-starts but if he does he must keep clear of the other boats, cross the startline (after the gun has gone) and then do his penalties.

 

Interesting stuff. If anyone thinks I'm wrong please say so, the above is only my reading and interpretations of the Rule Book. There surely has to be someone with better rules knowledge than me reading this.

[Guest]

KMwhat

That's what I'm looking for, do you know which rule states it needs to be on the coarse side of the startline.

 

And if so is there anywhere that says you can't go to the coarse side do your turns, go back and start afresh

'What' ignored

 

Can't find one that specifically says it must be course side but all references to penalties do refer to 'on the course' and one or 2 also refer to 'before you cross the finishline i.e on the course side'. All appear to say penalties must be done between the start and the finish.

 

I very very much doubt you would be allowed to cock-up, dive to the course side of the startline, do turns, come back and start on the gun penalty free. I do think if you tried that a PC would just say 'sorry buddy but your out'. Now lets all go to the bar, Paul is shouting

 

I shall read deeper and see if I can find anything for you John but I'd suggest 2 things. One, don't hit anyone before the start and 2, if you do stay out of their way and get the turns done once you have started correctly.

[johnMi 2]

I agree with you Knotme

Not to hit boats, and also have learnt even if you push off another boat do your turns, but in investigating this, I have once again ended up with more questions than answers.

Thanks anyway Knotme for your help, I will keep searching.

[B00B00 310]

Thought I should post this here too for anyone who didn't read the other thread.

 

Well I understand it that you can take a penalty anytime between the preparatory signal (4min gun) and the finish as you are racing from the 4min gun. The actual start gun has bugger all to do with it other than the fact that there is no proper course before the start gun (so people can hunt you to make it harder for you to do the turns).

 

Rule 44.1: Taking a Penalty

A boat that may have broken a rule of Part 2 while racing may take a penalty at the time of the incident. Her penalty shall be a Two-Turns Penalty unless the sailing instructions specify the use of the Scoring Penalty or some other penalty. However, if she caused injury or serious damage or gained a significant advantage in the race or series by her breach her penalty shall be to retire.

 

Definition of ‘Racing’

Racing

A boat is racing from her preparatory signal until she finishes and clears the finishing line and marks or retires, or until the race committee signals a general recall,postponement, or abandonment.

[johnMi 2]

Thanks again BooBoo

[Guest]

Booboo,

The time is taken from the visual signals, not the sound. RRS 26

[Guest Rocket]

I know from persomnal experience that "do your turns you arsehole" does not constitute an acceptable hail. I would alwas go - "boat number # I am protesting you" and then establish who will witness from those around you (vocally as it encourages the other dude to do their turns...)

[Guest]

Well I understand it that you can take a penalty anytime between the preparatory signal (4min gun) and the finish as you are racing from the 4min gun. The actual start gun has bugger all to do with it other than the fact that there is no proper course before the start gun (so people can hunt you to make it harder for you to do the turns).

I think I like Booboos take on it better than mine. He mentions the pre-start hunting which does make sense now he mentions it..... or more correctly spurs a 'Oh O, that rings a bell' moment

 

I know from persomnal experience that "do your turns you arsehole"

And I think if you hit some real pedantic w^&#$@r that phrase would probably put you close to breaching the rule saying be nice i.e. no bad language as well. Didn't someone get pinged a few years back for calling another boat a bunch of Aholes a bit to loudly? Thinking England and maybe Cowes week.......

[Guest Rocket]

Well the jury didn't go down that path. They simply thanked me for my honesty and dismissed the protest. Most jury members are normal experienced yachties and know that people tend to be a little colourful when rounding marks in the heat of the battle. In the olden days we used to chase each other around our boats to sort out indescretions - and I understand the odd finn sailor got some pretty painful whacks on the hands with paddles when promoting themselves after a pile up (at the expense of the boat next door they were pulling on).

 

In my day you used to be able to do a buffalo girls around the outside of pile ups in P class by grabbing onto the parked bunch and hauling - it is race after all....

[PaulR 3]

So now KM states that I am right TWICE.

 

So what is now wrong in my comments

 

Interestingly sometimes it is hard to contact the other person. I tried to do this after skippering a racing yacht was hit by a cruising yacht, a few years ago.

 

Even the Squadron said "under the Privacy Act they cannot give me the owners' name, address(s) or phone number(s)". So one is unable to legally meet the RRS 61.1 (a). All one can do is file the protest in writing before the time limit.

 

Recently tried to after a race but the other boat was all locked and all gone home. Interestingly this problem was acknowledged by the Protest Committee.

 

Any other suggestions as to who or how to contact somebody, who you don't know and only have a boat name

 

Auckland City Council won't tell you and different marinas do not share such valuable information. Harbourmaster does not know, YNZ / PHRF / MSA / VHF / EPIRB / SSB registrations are NOT shared with anybody with the possible exception of SAR but only in emergencies. Even then information is incomplete and possibly inaccurate. (See other threads about EPIRB data being RETYPED with 8+ errors.)

 

Has anybody actually tried to get information out of any of the above in a normal way (I exclude those times a person knows who you are and that there is no danger, extortion, retribution or wicked intent involved. So that excludes KM on at least a few counts )

 

Stumped.

Well normally legally, but many of our crew, as KM well knows, have access to lots of stuff, but they are off duty when sailing. Two rums and they are really forgetful

[PaulR 3]

The youth most probably looked at KM's lack of long flowing dark locks and recognised that the sun must have affected his logic, memory and aptitude or all three; and so simply got out of the way, acknowledging his expertise as a bayswater ?anchor and bondage type

[markm 30]

Very disappointed Rocket the committee didn't investigate the facts, after all, if they were a**holes it was a perfectly acceptable hail.

 

Of course, if the PC found there were multiple boats with a**holes on board, they may have ruled you failed to properly identify which specific a**holes you were protesting.

 

It would make for a classic 'facts found' wouldn't it.

[Guest]

Very disappointed Rocket the committee didn't investigate the facts, after all, if they were a**holes it was a perfectly acceptable hail.

 

Of course, if the PC found there were multiple boats with a**holes on board, they may have ruled you failed to properly identify which specific a**holes you were protesting.

 

It would make for a classic 'facts found' wouldn't it.

Good point. If you could get 3 maybe 4 other boats to also say they were a*holes would it then be quite legal to use that hail?

 

Actually there would be more than a few here who if asked 'Can you be a a**hole?', if they were honest would have to answer in the positive. I know I would so if I ever cut you off Rocket a**hole away to your hearts content, I won't be denying it in the protest room or at least knot with a straight face :)

 

Yes Paul there is issues contacting sometimes but I think you'd be on lot safer ground showing you at least tried hard too and just couldn't rather than just rely on hailing. Also using the crews 'contacts' could be a bit dodgy or at least one specific crews contacts