Protests knot lodged

[Guest]

In Simrad R1, and that's only a topical example as it has happened a fair bit on other races as well, we saw a fair number of protest flags flying. One I believe involved boat to boat contact last weekend.

 

We had no idea about the 2 protests that have been lodged from this weekend so where are the rest of the protests?

 

It's pretty obvious people are doing bad, been on the wrong end of a bad and have seen bad being done. Surely we aren't all happy to let bad slide past unquestioned or is there a pile of beaten up yachties lying in a rubbish bin behind some bar after 'being taught a lesson' off the books?

 

Just seems bizarre so many let stuff slide by without even a boo (the ghost one, knot the sailmaker one) being said.

[Guest]

In Simrad R1, and that's only a topical example as it has happened a fair bit on other races as well, we saw a fair number of protest flags flying. One I believe involved boat to boat contact last weekend.

 

We had no idea about the 2 protests that have been lodged from this weekend so where are the rest of the protests?

 

It's pretty obvious people are doing bad, been on the wrong end of a bad and have seen bad being done. Surely we aren't all happy to let bad slide past unquestioned or is there a pile of beaten up yachties lying in a rubbish bin behind some bar after 'being taught a lesson' off the books?

 

Just seems bizarre so many let stuff slide by without even a boo (the ghost one, knot the sailmaker one) being said.

 

 

Quite right KM, the reality is that with 3 knots more breeze it would have been a 100k sh*t fight. If you dont protes idiots they keep doing it.

[Guest]

In the SSANZ I see it as much about loss minimalisation as anything. That many boats, that much of a park up, and a relatively low level of big fleet experience - It is a recipe for disaster. Having done similar races with 1100 boats in the past, I actively didn't enforce my rights.

But - the previous week I had cause to get all bitter and twisted and yell protest in a RNZYS race. Then I saw who was perched in the companionway of the S34 and decided forget it. Just added note to self - keep further away from that boat. It's just not worth the grief.

[Guest]

I see alot of this happening in dinghys.

 

There seems to be a culture where the protestor is considered the bad guy for trying to get the protestee disqualified. It is particularly bad with the juniors as it results in bullying and ganging up on the protestor.

 

Combine this with the time taken to fill in the form and organise a protest committee and go to the room.... etc.

 

People just can't be bothered with all the crap that is involved unless first place is in the balance. So because no-one protests, no-one bothers to do penalty turns either and they get away with breaking the rules.

[PaulR 3]

Another aspect is that all protests are held, basically behind closed doors. I am not attacking those who give freely of their time to lean and sit on such protest committees, who are fine sailors as well.

 

More it is the system whereby nobody else in the fleet can learn from other's mistakes, observe the system and learn from the decision.

 

I believe that if the protests were "open to the public" it would be an opportunity for others to watch and learn.

 

Certainly the judges decisions can be debated in private / judges chambers etc. No problem there.

[Guest]

I see alot of this happening in dinghys.

 

There seems to be a culture where the protestor is considered the bad guy for trying to get the protestee disqualified. It is particularly bad with the juniors as it results in bullying and ganging up on the protestor.

 

Combine this with the time taken to fill in the form and organise a protest committee and go to the room.... etc.

 

People just can't be bothered with all the crap that is involved unless first place is in the balance. So because no-one protests, no-one bothers to do penalty turns either and they get away with breaking the rules.

 

sh*t that's knot an encouraging post for our sport is it. But a good post even if freaky B.

 

Nice to see at least 4 people think it's worth a comment but the silence is otherwise somewhat deafening.

 

So we just don't care seems to be the feeling I've had building for a while. Hey, but nice to know we can play up willy nilly with feck all chance of anyone saying boo. Sure they'll bitch at the bar afterwards but Ha Ha tuff titties the results will still say we beat ya.

 

Fly it and follow through or stand by to reap what you sew.

[B00B00 310]

I think the answer is in mediation/abritration sessions either on the water for big events or at the bar/YC imediatly after racing. if it cant be resolved then go to the protest room.

[Guest Rocket]

We use a mediation step in the dinghys it is pretty good unless you get two old grumpy buggers who know too much - then off to the rooom!

 

I think you mean sow not sew...

[Guest]

From what I've read here it seems most protests are decided on the basis of the legality of the protest rather than the actual rule allegedly "broken".

Was the protest made within the time limit?

Was it adequately flagged on the course?

Yada yada yada

Delay the hearing until the protester is too pissed to make their argument is a favourite.

I heard someone blowing their own trumpet about the use of that technique.

 

The stories about youth sailing are not great for the future.

[Atom Ant 0]

We encourage protesting but the reality is that a fair majority of our club members wouldn't know the rules of racing well enough. Usually a protest occurs as a result of a prang or a close port/starboard, but otherwise it just doesn't happen. We have a mediation clause in our sailing Instructions so that if a protest flag is raised then mediation is the first option. It gives the offender and the offended an opportunity to discuss things and agree on an outcome. If not then it will go to protest. We usually have about 1 protest per season.

[Guest]

Yes I understand many don't know the rules as much as they think they do but couldn't a lot of that come down to they just don't have to because they know it's unlikely they'll be protested. A Catch 22 sort of thing.

 

Being honest, I'll admit to having probably less of a grasp on the new rules than I probably should but then as we've noticed I have observed the lack of protesting so haven't felt the need to brush up on them.

 

I like the mediation thing and have been involved with a few. Seems a little less 'legal' like so it can take the hard edge off it all, that in my opinion, isn't a bad thing. But you still don't see a lot of that considering the number of boats out there and the photos of crunched boats that seem to pop up with some regularity also with often mentioned startline/zone infractions.

 

Hey, in our sport we have rules and we shouldn't be afraid to enforce them. Sure it may piss someone off but if your protesting isn't that because someone pissed you off by busting a rule? I've been in many a heated protest room but I can't think of anyone (knot to say there couldn't be a huge pile) who today still thinks I'm an arse due to flying a flag. Christ in 9 out of 10 protests all parties were buying each other beers and laughing together 30mins after the verdict was read. Even a few of the real weirdos have thanked me/us for protesting, which is a tad weird. I can't think of anyone who has protested me or a boat I've been on that I think is an arse for doing so. At the time we might knot have been happy but after a day or so when the blood pressure drops and it's thought through, Yeah fair enough for asking the question, no grudge held.

 

But can think of the odd protest committee who got it horribly wrong and decided against us though

 

There's a well known saying - You learn the most from your mistakes. And there is next to know of us who couldn't learn more.

[PaulR 3]

Yes mediation is wonderful and should be used more often.

[MrWolf 0]

From what I've read here it seems most protests are decided on the basis of the legality of the protest rather than the actual rule allegedly "broken".

Was the protest made within the time limit?

Was it adequately flagged on the course?

Yada yada yada

.

 

The first thing that a protest is trying to resolve is were any rules broken here.

 

I understand about procedures.

the American DIC procedure is the field sobriety test which they can only apply with justifiable cause.

So Joe the drunk driver gets to argue about justifiable cause to test, if the police fail that the case is thrown out...

 

 

Then the reactions and answers to the fst are recorded,

in court you can successfully argue that the police should have let you off based on the fst and case can be dismissed

 

So even though you failed the blood test in the US, based on procedure you can be let off.

 

In NZ its a bit better, if you are over the limit you are basically guilty.

 

The protest system to me is too much of the cart in front of the horse, and is based to much on the American sense of Freedom, Fairplay and Justice for all.

 

Based on recent history where one boat unequivocally sailed the right course and protested.

 

The rest of the fleet sailed a different course which must have been wrong.

 

The protest was still dismissed for being filed too late.

 

The RC should be able to take enough from the evidence to have acted without a protest being filed anyway.

 

I also think a protest is at best a 50:50 resolution proposition, there are lots of technicalities and for example your main witness can say something wrong that puts you in the crap !