category 1 or not

[Guest]

"But no point discussing, no way in gods little green and blue world are bureaucracy going to back down, way to many vested interests involved."

 

Aw c'mon.We just have to accept that these regulations are going to fundamentally change the way we get around them.

[Guest]

Most interesting threads! Here's my 5 cents worth (including GST): Jim Lott who (did?) head up the Cat1 inspections in Auckland sort of came to an agreement with me on certain aspects of onboard safety gear. As a SINGLE HANDER, a throw line is as useful as a banjo.. (even a dueling one!). The rest? Well opinions differ. FIRE at sea is my greatest concern because I don't believe in "liferafts" after seeing several not even inflate at a demo years ago in Launceston. Some had the painters pull away and even those with drogues tried to get airborne when the wind (fan!) was turned on! Then we were invited to try to get in one fully clothed after being in the water! If the boat was holed (depending on size) I think you would be better off inflating the raft INSIDE your ship! A solid dingy with boyancy tanks, "throw bag" and DECENT wet weather gear would have been better. (Incidentally I have 6 extinguishers on board and inflation bags). Having been caught off Cape Turnagain (aptly named!) I rode a para-anchor for 4 days (very comfy!) in gale 50 knot plus winds and see they are NOT specified for CAT1!! Jim said that may change? Has it? Having used one I think all off shore boats should have them. Essentially, we have seen our freedoms erroded because of the inability of some to take the sea seriously so we all get tarred with the same brush as an Orion costs $20k an hour to fly around looking for us. Sad really as it should have been the last bastion of free will to sail from a country to visit another without anything compulsory but alas, the nanny state jumps in and thats that. The Hiskocks are partly right. I believe you put to sea with the belief that rescue is NOT an option. How many have abandoned perfectly good vessels (putting their own and others lives at risk) simply because the engine failed, loss of power, loss of mast etc only to have the crewless yacht arrive safely at some other port! CAT1 to me, is a sad loss of FREEDOM to explore! That is, "explore" one's self in being able to go the distance. One caveat to this is the "one's self"; single handers are responsible for only their own lives, if a crew is aboard then its a whole new ball game.

[Guest]

WD did you have a spade rudder?I have seen it suggested that some designs will lie beam on to the seas when lying to any kind of drouge.I am impressed that you were able to use a parachute for four days without a major problem with it.If I had to choose I think I would prefer a Jordan drouge to a parachute.

[Steve Pope 243]

I think that a fundamental aspect of cat 1 is that it only pertains to NZ, reach Fiji or Tonga and you are automatically downgraded to cat 2. Continue travelling around the world and you will only have to redo cat 1 after returning to NZ and are planing to leave again, perhaps 5 or 10 years after leaving on the first voyage. The predominate number of yachts leaving NZ are Island bound, 9 days good time, 14 days average to slow time. for many folk this is the longest piece of ocean sailing they will ever do, so the window for something to go wrong is very small. The 1st aid kit requirements are based on the needs of an offshore racing crew, quite a different set of paremeters to those encountered by mum and dad cruisers.

As an aside there seems to be deafening silence re the failure of the (new) Zodiac 8 man life raft that Jordan stepped up into, is there any followup from the cat 1 folk into researching / recording these failures??

[tuffyluffy 76]

As an aside there seems to be deafening silence re the failure of the (new) Zodiac 8 man life raft that Jordan stepped up into, is there any followup from the cat 1 folk into researching / recording these failures??

 

Are these the same brand that fell to pieces in the '98 Syd-Hbt?

 

As my Spinlock lifejacket states, "when your down to your last chance, it better be a good one". If id dropped good coin on a new raft, id be plenty pissed at this and kicking up a right royal hissy-fit

[Guest]

I went googling to find the NZ agent (not that easy, but I found the Hutchwico site where I found this under Zodaic liferafts

 

12 Year Warranty

 

Because of ZODIAC's experience and the quality of its design, Zodiac guarantees for twelve years the Open Sea liferafts. This guarantee applies under certain conditions to all liferafts, provided they are annually inspected in an authorized service station.

[Guest]

WD did you have a spade rudder?I have seen it suggested that some designs will lie beam on to the seas when lying to any kind of drouge.I am impressed that you were able to use a parachute for four days without a major problem with it.If I had to choose I think I would prefer a Jordan drouge to a parachute.

 

Bummer!! (thought someone might ask that question!!...<>) Well, yes! I hadn't checked the recovery floats that drifted away soon after deployment and after 4 days the warp went STRAIGHT DOWN! It took a bit to recover using a sheet winch (every time the bow dipped off a wave I took up the slack!!) but recovered it! ($1200 for the anchor and $900 for the warp.. I was contemplating diving for it!! ... or the wife:-).

WD is a Van de Stadt "seahorse" (only one in the country I know of). Built in DD kauri in 1966 (in the words of the surveyor "a brick shithouse" construction!) and a blade balanced rudder. Sat on that anchor like riding a mooring! I might point out that Hiscocks and others have talked of strain on rudders etc from using them and off setting para-anchors so the ship isn't bow too. These people have obviously never used one as wind and waves offer LEAST RESISTANCE bow on! (otherwise we would all be mooring our boats on the beam!! This business of sliding back on the rudder is total crap! It really is like being ANCHORED! Of course if you have gone the "budget" way and bought one too small for your vessel and not worried about the 120 meters of 1" NYLON WOVEN warp... then God knows! For my money, best bloody thing I ever bought for my boat!

[Guest]

This business of sliding back on the rudder is total crap! It really is like being ANCHORED! Of course if you have gone the "budget" way and bought one too small for your vessel and not worried about the 120 meters of 1" NYLON WOVEN warp... then God knows! For my money, best bloody thing I ever bought for my boat!

 

Thanks for that WD I like to learn stuff like that and store it away for future use.My first boat was a 30ft Van de Stadt,DD constuction and launched 1968.I never knew for sure what model but it may have been a Seahorse.A very seaworthy boat and I wish I had it now.

So what diameter is your para?Do you stow it in the lazzarete?Any problems getting it in and out?Does it dis-assemble?Do you know of any internet pics of similar paras?

[Guest]

And have you tried using a drogue instead?

[ex TL systems 63]

i spent a night on a big parachute sea anchor off the wairarapa coast on a 46ft wharram after breaking one tiller. Lashed the other rudder and tiller and waited for morning, thinking we will carry on in the morning on 1 rudder.We had a comfortable night but when it was light the second tiller had also broken, so yes they do get pushed back by waves and this does put a strain on the steering system. It exposed a weakness on that boat but when you think about the stretch in 200ft of nylon you must be dreaming if you think you won,t get pushed back in the type of conditions you would be likely to use it in.

[ex TL systems 63]

re the para anchor i bought it off a guy in coromandel who makes them and lists them on trademe. Worked great and still looks brand new after use, not too big to carry , i would always want one for offshore or longer coastal trips, gives the crew a chance to relax and wait for the weather to improve, we were on it around 15 hrs and only moved 2 miles.

[Guest]

Paras and Jordons are becoming quite popular. We make a lot of rodes for them these days for a huge range of boats, often a few we wouldn't have expected only a few short years ago.

 

Assuming a 16mm Nylon rode (most common size behind 20mm) around 60mts long, you'd expect approx. 9-12mts of travel due to elastic elongation (stretch) if pushed a bit, more if it's full on. If you are getting around 20-22mts worth the rope is about to go 'F**k you' and bust. You can decrease the travel by using a polyester instead of a nylon. It'll still stretch nicely under good loads but knot quite as much as a nylon. Most go multiplait like a 8 braid as the elongation is a little sooner, smother and it's around 10% stronger. Some go double braid is it looks more pretty and packs away easier. Next to none use a laid rope (3 strand) due to rotation issues. One total moron used laid polyprop and probably lost his entire rode around 10mins after deploying it.

[Guest]

Back to the original question

 

If a law/rule is bad people look for ways around it or to avoid it.

 

If more and more and more people are looking at ways to skip getting Cat 1, then maybe it's time to revisit the question and ask why this is happening and is there a better way of doing things that would be better supported.

[wheels 543]

Is it that the rule is bad, or is it that people just want to save money??

What part of Cat1 do people not like???

[Guest]

Both really, One thing they don't like is the cost. Someone has already mentioned a medical kit designed for the the fully crewed offshore racer. Mom and Pop heading up to the islands can get away with less. I put together a kit for an non NZ boat I was delivering working with a mate who is a pharmacist. Lots of yes you need that, no use this instead it is just as good but cheaper or no you don't need that. We did it at around 25% the cost of the cat 1 kit.

 

Other things I don't like, liferafts, SSB radios, both big ticket items.

Most of all I don't like the idea of being told what to do. I also think there is a culture of "I have all the cat 1 gear so I'm safe" which is patently untrue (Jordan's liferaft).

[ex TL systems 63]

from a multihull perspective i don,t like the idea of cutting a hole in my hull down near the waterline to fit an escape hatch in case it capsizes, the old rule allowed you to carry an axe or similiar strapped under the boat and cut the hole if and when needed, instead of potentially weakening the hull with a vulnerable hatch that may or may not open when needed.

[Guest]

Another good example. If someone has thought through a potential problem, then prepared themself and is comfortable with said preparation, that should be enough.

[wheels 543]

Arrr right, yes I see. Like a story a few years back of a Guy leaving Nelson and he had biult what I thought was a damn awesome lifeboat from his dingy, but wasn't allowed to use it as sole liferaft. Yet his was by far the better raft.

Personally, there is very little I would not have onboard, apart from the one or two things like Squid said, re the First aid Kit.

I think one issue with the saftey equipment required is that the requirements were originally dcided upon in a time where you really were out there on your own. Today, it is becoming a very small world. New GPS means faster more accurate find and supply drop and more Ships at Sea mean faster rescue. Even with that girl down in the Southern Indian ocean, it was only a day or two and a ship was there. Jordans case had a ship on the seen in a day. It is not common to have to wait for days on end for rescue now.

So this all brings up a question then. Who exactly sets these rules and how do we as a Sailing community go about lobbying those people for a review and change of these rules. Are they a closed door, or is their a Marine "Body" with an ear to hear comments. Surely if a sailing community can come up with a comment like , we think rule X should be reviewd because of this reason, someone should be able to say yes we need to change that top bring it into line with todays technology.

[Guest]

So this all brings up a question then. Who exactly sets these rules and how do we as a Sailing community go about lobbying those people for a review and change of these rules. Are they a closed door, or is their a Marine "Body" with an ear to hear comments. Surely if a sailing community can come up with a comment like , we think rule X should be reviewd because of this reason, someone should be able to say yes we need to change that top bring it into line with todays technology.

 

 

Now there you have a problem. It's all done by YNZ. YNZ is not a body of sailors. It is a body of yacht clubs. As such it isn't a very democratic institution. As I read it submissions go to your local YC committee, to a YNZ representative, to YNZ.

Yes you can pick up the phone and ring someone, but if they don't agree with you it dies there, or you wade through the above process and it dies a bit later.

 

One interesting example where things did happen was the Tornado at the Olympics vote. YNZ helped vote it out. Dopey politics and out of touch with the grassroots. Then they realized just how unpopular that was going to be and changed their tune. However that debate had the word Olympics in it, and a was much higher profile than a handful of offshore cruisers wanting to get away from NZ, many of whom probably wouldn't be seen dead in a YC.

[Battgirl 23]

Talking about medical kits for offshore, David I'd be interested in what you do especially what you don't go without, what you leave out. Cheers Cathy