wheels 543 Posted May 13, 2014 Share Posted May 13, 2014 Not sure where you got that idea Wheels, the Simrad AP24 and 28 both have Auto tack feature, and so does the ST6002 Raymarine ??? And the B&G H5000 series (only pretty sure on that, not certain) Are all those AP's current models? Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Posted May 13, 2014 Share Posted May 13, 2014 Why will it dictate instruments KM? Basically for all intents and purposes to me NMEA2000 and 0183 could be the size of Pippa Middletons 2 boobs. I know it's not but I just don't understand NMEA, in fact have to check each time I write it to make sure I spell it correctly. If I mix brands I'll get "Interface your left buttock with pint of Yaks milk to form a circle in which you can summon the Devil". If at sea and the system fails I ring brand supplier A who will undoubtedly pass the buck saying 'it's Brand B's problem, speak to them', who in turn will just pass that on again until one says 'Sorry we don't do mix n match nor does our warranty'. If I get one brand I'll get "Well you have 1hr to make it work or give the coin back dude" and if at sea I will know the very person who will never have to get a prostrate exam should they fail to help me at the time. What's more that person will know I know. Looking around, and not just in the marine game, 'mix n match' gives more problems than 'made to match'. We see that at work a lot and in fact it's a growing issue in a few what should be the simplest of areas. So nothing much more than simplicity in connecting and support really IT. That's partially also why I have a carburettored motorbike over a black box one, I have a better chance of stumbling onto a fix should I have to at 4am in the middle of the Desert Rd. Performance and reliability mainly. Yeah that all makes sense. The hassles I have is a transom hung rudder, very limited power generation and bugger all room for gear like that. I've never had any tiller pilot issues even with one that spend some time sloshing around in my outboard well and after a shake still goes perfectly fine so I'm going to run with those (note 'those', I have a few now) I think. The 2000's have very similar specs to the SPX and if it's hooked up one way the 2000 would work exactly like the SPX/X5 with gyros, heads and all that stuff. I know exactly why that is doing that in the video and it isn't the AP, it's because that anchor is sitting right next to it. I got that exact thing suddenly happen a few seasons ago. It took a while to suss (return leg of Bucks solo weekend in 0 gusting 0kts of wind and seriously hungover) but I had changed motors and in doing so the newly fitted was closer to the AP. Took the motor away and instantly the very same pilot had us going in a dead straight line. Motor back and wondering we did go.....but it was fun changing course by changing the RPM's So I'm calling that video is a simple case of lack of knowledge of compass management rather than a AP issue. It's an interesting subject but one that will vary wildly with differing boats and users knowledge levels. Link to post Share on other sites
Island Time 1,246 Posted May 13, 2014 Author Share Posted May 13, 2014 Wheels, yes, all current models. KM, yes, I understand where you are coming from. Any certified nmea 2000 device should work with any other. The bus carries the data in a language they all are supposed to understand. With NMEA 2000, the days of incompatibility SHOULD be over. However I'm sure you are right, and some support companies will still try to avoid their responsibility with that argument! Fineline, I don't think you will get the power or reliability out of any electric ram that hydraulics can give. This is why there are so many hydraulic rams in industry, and very few electric ones by comparison! Link to post Share on other sites
Oracle1 21 Posted May 13, 2014 Share Posted May 13, 2014 yip... Oracle has had for 7 years now the Raymarine st6000 smart pilot. sure the actual electric ram is above deck like all other tiller pilots but thats all... the computer and gyro compass to control it is all down stairs, best piece of kit i ever brought, it hooks into the rest of my raymarine instruments and runs to wind angle upwind picking shifts in light and heavy easily, running down hill it will pick up the boat and "learn" what she like's to surf the waves. also you can set it to a chart plotter course, but i never do this. aditionally it can sail to apparent wind angle which is more useful....wasn't cheap 7 eyars ago ... and the only broken piece in that time is the connector for power in the cockpit. power draw is dependant on the weather and on how accurate you have it set. any where from 0.5 - 2.5 amps put me down for raymarine..!! Link to post Share on other sites
too_tall 15 Posted May 13, 2014 Share Posted May 13, 2014 Hydraulic has the ability to deliver far more force - if you want to. It also has an ability to have shock absorbing - simply with the addition of a pair of gas filled accumulators. This can prevent breakages by giving just a couple of degrees or so of deflection in the case of a massive force being applied to the rudder. Electric rams in my experience have been worm drive - and have absolutely no ability to deflect under massive shock loadings. Even without accumulators there is a very small amount of deflection in the hydraulic systems. I believe this to be a very good thing. We have a pair of 100ml accumulators - one extend, one retract, and they don't feel to change how the yacht behaves, but they do reduce the pressure spikes an immense amount. Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Posted May 14, 2014 Share Posted May 14, 2014 KM, yes, I understand where you are coming from. Any certified nmea 2000 device should work with any other. I tried to match my 0183 Navman to gear that was also 0183 but the 2 sides had different strings so while the same language they used different dialects. Or that's what a techo told me, no idea if 2000 gets around that. I think if you get good gear and set it up well including looking at where it'll spend it's days, most is pretty reliable. Also if it's dedicated marine gear it's always on the boat ready to go, unlike a iPhone for example. I'd like to go NKE but suspect that would be like putting a fully worked V8 in a 1962 Morrie Minor. Oh who was talking linear drives? They have some nice looking ones. http://www.nke-marine-electronics.com/nke-products/autopilot/type-40-hydraulic-linear-drive-external-installation/ Link to post Share on other sites
Island Time 1,246 Posted May 14, 2014 Author Share Posted May 14, 2014 Yep those Hydraulic linear drives (fancy name for a ram!) are the business. For offshore, carry a spare set of hoses, a set of seals, and replacement brushes for the motor. Prob won't need the first two, might need the brushes! These systems should give you a hell of a lot of miles before needing anything. I had a hydraulics guy come and show me how to change the seals on my ram, after about 20,000 miles. He asked why I was doing it, because there were not even any signs of wear!! NMEA 0183 has different sentences for different functions. Especially early on, it was not unknown to find that a particular device would not use the sentences you had available. This should be less of an issue with NMEA 2000, BUT it still uses things called PGNs which carry certain data types (wind, speed etc, a bit like the sentences of NMEA 0183). Not all NMEA 2000 devices (esp converters, like from NMEA 2000- NMEA0183 etc) can use all PGNs, so the same issue is still possible. Anyone designing a system needs to make sure that the devices that they want to use have the correct PGN capabilities. It is not normally an issue, but needs to be checked! Link to post Share on other sites
John B 106 Posted May 14, 2014 Share Posted May 14, 2014 Oh who was talking linear drives? They have some nice looking ones. http://www.nke-marine-electronics.com/nke-products/autopilot/type-40-hydraulic-linear-drive-external-installation/ NKE use the lecomble and schmidt drive I was talking about earlier. Off the top of my head , that one you link to is the same one I fitted a few years ago and use the old ST6000 to drive. As I said , they come prebled and you just link em up mechanically and electrically and done( all below deck to a quadrant say). In my case I did actually split it because I wanted the electrics below deck and the ram at the tiller head on the inside of the transom, but that just meant it needed to be bled after I'd run the hoses. Link to post Share on other sites
too_tall 15 Posted May 14, 2014 Share Posted May 14, 2014 Yep those Hydraulic linear drives (fancy name for a ram!) are the business. For offshore, carry a spare set of hoses, a set of seals, and replacement brushes for the motor. Prob won't need the first two, might need the brushes! These systems should give you a hell of a lot of miles before needing anything. I had a hydraulics guy come and show me how to change the seals on my ram, after about 20,000 miles. He asked why I was doing it, because there were not even any signs of wear!! The most likely failure point in this system is either the rigid mounts or the quadrant. In my experience, a correctly sized hydraulic ram is near on impossible to damage if used within its design parameters. Seals only get damaged when foreign matter enters them - and that should never happen in a closed circuit system where the ram is not subjected to getting crap fall on it, knocked by things etc. If the ram is going to fail, it will almost undoubtedly be early in its life, from a manufacturing defect, or after getting subjected to forces far outside its design parameter. But I suspect that to subject the ram to that kind of force would destroy the quadrant, rudder itself or shaft. I would suggest carrying more than just spare brushes though - I would carry a whole new pump/motor assembly. The pump is generally the most problematic part of a hydraulic system in general ( not marine specific ). Link to post Share on other sites
Island Time 1,246 Posted May 14, 2014 Author Share Posted May 14, 2014 Agreed TT, but the pumps are heavy and expensive, so most boats I've seen don't have a spare. I've seen the hoses damaged by other objects aboard as well. I must admit to having been thinking about having a look for a pump alternative supplier. 12v reversable, which is what my pilot uses. The prices the marine AP manufacturer's charge seem way over the top .... With a pilot using this type of steering setup, the ram is, in my opinion, the LEAST likely component to fail. The Pump, hoses, and the electronics are more fragile.... Link to post Share on other sites
John B 106 Posted May 14, 2014 Share Posted May 14, 2014 here ya go. http://www.ls-france.com/ls/uk/lsvoilem-pa-el-fr.php I can't recall if I have the 32 or 40, paperwork is on the boat. Link to post Share on other sites
tuffyluffy 76 Posted May 14, 2014 Share Posted May 14, 2014 Humbug to all this talk about hydraulic drives - just another bunch of hoses, tools and oil to carry around. 12 volt below deck electric linear drive all the way. This is the below deck drive on my tub. Dead simple and reliable with 480kg of peak thrust that will nearly take your leg off if the tiller collects you. Even I managed to get this thing networked and running without reading the manual Specs here http://raymarine.com/view/?id=579&colle ... 0&col=5915 Link to post Share on other sites
wheels 543 Posted May 15, 2014 Share Posted May 15, 2014 Humbug to all this talk about hydraulic drives - just another bunch of hoses, tools and oil to carry around. Yep, then all you have to worry about is a bunch of wires, Battery charge, water tightness and worm drive/gears in the Ram and the insy bitsy teenie weeny drive motor Link to post Share on other sites
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