Wickedly bad timing

[Clipper 344]

Sure they may have made money back. But at what cost socially, ethically and morally.

 

No cost whatsoever.

 

The money you say should be used to help fund more nurses etc would not have been, so we are not talking 300 more nurses versus ETNZ sailing.

 

socially, having the guys sailing was amazing, the whole country was behind them and watching.

 

Ethically and morally, govt support is required. If the cup came to NZ, the financial benefits to the country would be huge, so only fair enough for the country to help fund the challenge. To not do so, and take advantage of the windfall if they win is ethically and morally suspect

 

We get your point Graham, we all know you dislike ETNZ, Dalton and Barker immensely. Please given it a rest.

[Guest]

I'm a little confused about reports that said the return was a lot, 10's of millions, and how that marries up with Tindel saying only $2 mill last week.

 

Either way it seems there is little doubt the investment in TNZ did pay back more than went out so was a good one from a commercial point of view. From the social point of view that's a totally different story and one that could be argued until the end of time.

 

Personally I think the world deserves a motherload more for the cost of a AC event these days but it seems people are happy to to see people spending a couple of million dollars per minute to watch a fancy parade in over sized beach cats that's run in a semi half-arsed manner.

 

Also now it seems TNZ has funding to hold it that's good. I just can't see why the taxpayer has to cover a commercial event when the lot smarter commercial players won't until they know a few things, like when it is, where it is, how it is and those other very highly important things. Who in their right mind would back anything with such a lack of information.... only people who aren't using their own money or are in so serioulsy deep they are just backing themselves.

[Guest]

My point is ...

 

Take said 40 million.

 

Instead of giving it to ETNZ to return whatever $$$

 

Invest 4 million in health , say cancer research, say reducing smoking' say whatever..

 

The return would be far greater than ETNZ, people at the lower end of society would live longer and cost less in treatment, and society would be better off.

 

 

The return would be greater both financially, and ethically.

 

 

Or look at it this way...

 

You have 12k in your bank account.

 

You can invest it and get 24k back

 

Or you can invest the 12 k in medical insurance ( one heart stent is more than that. Or one hip opp is double that) and have the benefit of a healthy existance and no cost to the taxpayer.)

 

Health investment or reducing health cost, returns more to the Govt than ETNZ. Reducing the effects of lung cancer cut Govt costs by millions every year ( not one regatta every 4 years) Same with education.

 

Invest in Dalt for a return or invest in society for a bigger return and a better society.

 

This is not about hating Dalton or Barker. But about what is holostically right for NZ short and long term.

 

But I guess this ( me debating the point with Crew) is deemed a rant when posted on a sailing site.

[Clipper 344]

Your opinion of what is moral, ethical and right, is vastly different from mine, and vehement repetition is not debate. Bludgeoning people will not make them agree with you.

 

As an example, I consider a better society one where we have the AC held here, not smokers living longer. The quicker they die the better I say.

[Guest]

To put this into perspective, if one of my sales team secured a contact worth $140M over 4 years, their commission would be $11M - $12M. Dalton has been paid $8M.

 

 

Where did you get $140 and & $8 million from. And as i understand Gary Pykel secured Emirates sponsorship,

[Guest]

Your opinion of what is moral, ethical and right, is vastly different from mine, and vehement repetition is not debate. Bludgeoning people will not make them agree with you.

 

As an example, I consider a better society one where we have the AC held here, not smokers living longer. The quicker they die the better I say.

 

Ditto clipper. Stop bludgeoning me with your view point

 

I am just putting up a perspective, as you are. The masses can judge who is right.

[Guest]

Your opinion of what is moral, ethical and right, is vastly different from mine, and vehement repetition is not debate. Bludgeoning people will not make them agree with you.

 

As an example, I consider a better society one where we have the AC held here, not smokers living longer. The quicker they die the better I say.

 

So if your son becomes a smoker you would rather have ETNZ trying to get a AC here than a plan or program to stop your next families generations having lung cancer.

 

You would rather buy Dalts a new Ducati than have John kirwin helping with mental health.

 

You would rather have a regatta than reduce health and education not be the best it could possible be.

 

You want sailing ahead of lifting the level of education and health (and thus reduce the long term cost of fixing dumb and healthy people )

[tuffyluffy 76]

To put this into perspective, if one of my sales team secured a contact worth $140M over 4 years, their commission would be $11M - $12M. Dalton has been paid $8M.

 

 

Where did you get $140 and & $8 million from. And as i understand Gary Pykel secured Emirates sponsorship,

 

$140M is what I understand to be ETNZ's sponsorship revenue for the last cup challenge.

 

$8M is Dalts $2M salary over 4 years.

 

From what I understand, neither of us was in the room when ETNZ was courting Emirates, nor were we there when they said yes. Who closed the deal, and who 'worked the deal, I have know idea, but Dalts was heading the team and the $$ was raised. Emirates is only one of many sponsors

[Clipper 344]

So if your son becomes a smoker you would rather have ETNZ trying to get a AC here than a plan or program to stop your next families generations having lung cancer.

 

You would rather buy Dalts a new Ducati than have John kirwin helping with mental health.

 

You would rather have a regatta than reduce health and education not be the best it could possible be.

 

You want sailing ahead of lifting the level of education and health (and thus reduce the long term cost of fixing dumb and healthy people )

 

its not sailing or education, or sailing or mental health. Those are not real options.

 

Those are not real options

 

Those are not real options

 

Those are not real options

 

If the money didn't go to ETNZ, it would NOT have gone to any of those things you raise. Sure, maybe it could, but it wouldn't. I disagree with a HUGE amount of govt spending, this is one thing i agree with.

[Black Panther 1,592]

So, I knew it, sailorX is a closet socialist. Who's it to be - Labour or the Mana party?

[tuffyluffy 76]

So, I knew it, sailorX is a closet socialist. Who's it to be - Labour or the Mana party?

 

He luuuurves Russell's, so maybe the greens?

[Guest]

Clipper and co.

 

Yes I understand your point of view and you are not wrong. But I think I would feel better knowing thatvETNZ sails with commercial backing and our Govt fund the things that help all of us.

 

After all if ETNZ was funded 100% privately the the Govt would get the same return plus the 40 million it spent.

 

That is a more eloquent solution.

 

And BP I am A capitalist with a social conscience.

 

Spread the wealth!

[Guest]

So, I knew it, sailorX is a closet socialist. Who's it to be - Labour or the Mana party?

 

He luuuurves Russell's, so maybe the greens?

 

Sorry lads. Wrong. but is it labour for you guys.

[Black Panther 1,592]

Nope, way too far right for me.

[Clipper 344]

I guess that is the reasons we cannot agree on anything, we are talking politics really, not sailing....

[Guest]

So, I knew it, sailorX is a closet socialist. Who's it to be - Labour or the Mana party?

He luuuurves Russell's, so maybe the greens?

You're getting these one liners down pat. I'm lovin your work. Russell's, that's gooooood

 

After all if ETNZ was funded 100% privately the the Govt would get the same return plus the 40 million it spent.

That is a very good point. Also that return was heavily due to Core Builders. If they don't build any of the next boats here that return also won't be here.

 

But not all of the return was tax back and the like. There was a lot of intangibles as they call them.

[Guest]

I am all for TNZ going again.

 

Just not with tax money and not with Dalton and Barker, they had their chance and failed.

 

Time for somemome else to have a go.

 

That's it.

[SloopJohnB 322]

Another bit of bad timing....

 

 

Was the 45's incident a red herring to keep the measure's preoccupied????

 

[Atom Ant 0]

SX interesting when you ask if we'd rather have JK helping with mental health or the AC. Because we had JK helping with mental Health and The AC.

 

At the end of the day, these types of arguments are baseless and futile. clearly SX you don't like GD,DB et al. I have no issue with that as you, as are we all, are entitled to your point of view.

 

But drawing the conclusions about taxpayer funding missing out due to the AC is drawing a long bow, and you may have a feeling that is the case, but can you prove there is a basis for it?

[Guest]

Yes I have AA and I have given examples.

 

here is the solution.

 

ETNZ takes a loan from the GOVT to cover the short fall. they are charged normal interest after 6 months is up. they have to pay the money back! or...

 

Even better, the ETNZ millionaires club, take up personal loans against their assets, stay calm and carry on!

 

The money that was going to ETNZ goes to St John Ambulance or Hospice NZ or The home of Compassion.

 

That way these people, who are barely making ends meet and rely on many thousand Vollies can offer better services which benefit society and reduce their reliance on your donations