The good oil.

[Guest 000]

Yahoo! Summer's coming, and I'm getting slowly thru my 'to do' list. Change of filters and engine oil next. Of course, having read the blurb about 'liquid engineering' on the bottle, I'm going to use Castrol. But then, there's Mobil's advanced synthetics, not to mention Shell's engine life prolonging wonder-gunk.

Whatever bottle you pick up and read the label of implies you'd be a fool to use anything else. All the ships I ever sailed on seemed to have a preference for Shell Rimula, but talking with an old chief engineer of mine this preference was more related to Shell's dominance in the marine market than any superiority of product.

So what is the opinion? Are all diesal 15w/40s created equal?

[Black Panther 1,587]

Go with the cheapest?

[Battleship 100]

I wouldn't bother with synthetics personally, I'd go for cheaper stuff and change it more often.

Pretty much any brand that conforms with the manufacturers specs would be fine.

[Guest Ketchup]

Cheap is such a false economy on many level.

 

I worked for Castrol many moons ago and saw the effort they put into oil technology.

 

The testing alone proved the technology developments were beneficial!

 

I saw all the dyno tests (Pangbourne)were they ran motors for thousand of hours then measured the engine wear of the motor componants and then compared the data between the different oils (from cheap mineral oils to full synthetic)

 

The difference was huge.

 

Back in the day when Castrol was owned by Burma Oil, they would do 10,000 Km tests from every car im the "world" fleet of company vehicles and keep running the cars until the tests said the oil was buggered and no longer protecting the motor.

 

My GM,s BMW had Castrol Syntrax in it andmit cracked 90,000 on its original oil. They changed it and the new owner (sold to private buyer) ran another 90,000km. last I heard it was at 480k and the head has never come of it.

 

 

Sure there are minimal standards and ratinsg but some of the best products on the market far exceed these and will allow your motor to perform for many hundreds of hours more than the cheap stuff.

 

For example.they took 10 brand new lada motors, ran five of them on the Russian mineral Oil and Five on the Castrol TXT semi synthetic. The 5 on the TXT ran twice as long before failure.

 

Why skimp on $40 (difference between a cheap oil and a great oil) when a motor is big $$$$

 

Also the additive packages in the synthetics provide many benefits that the cheap oils do not have...

 

Anti wear (magnatec technology)

 

Cooling

 

Cleaning

 

Faster circulation

 

Low viscocity for start up then high Viscosity for running.

 

Oils is cheap!... motors... well...

[Steve Pope 243]

Buy the best oil you can afford, it is the cheapest maintenance available.

[wheels 543]

Oil is something I have spent years playing with, Selling, Testing, Researching, selling additives etc etc.
First point. Don't waste your money on additives. The general range offered in all the automotive supplies shops are nothing but hype and in some instances, can cause more problems than  cure.
Second point, when it comes to Diesels, oil quality is far more important that a petrol engine. And additives or even synthetics for that matter, can sometimes be bad. It depends on the engine make, size and age.
Perhaps just 2 or 3yrs back, I would have said cheap oil as BP states is OK, providing you want to change it regularly along with a filter. Because the big key to all Diesel Oils is not so much the lubrication, but the ability of cleaning the engine of combustion deposits and then suspending those deposits so as they can be taken to the Filter to be collected. But there are some reeealy cheap oils on the market right now, that have very little info of the specs they are supposed to conform too, so I would be very cautious of buying cheap. My version of cheap is still a recognised brand name that meets an engine manufacturers minimum requirement. .
BUT!!!! When it comes to Diesels, there are some important rules to adhere to. The first question is what Engine make do you have and does it have a Turbo.
Modern Diesels require a different oil to older ones like old Fords, Perkins, Buhk, Volvos etc etc. Many old engines require a Mono 3o or at the least, a 20W40. Nothing lower than 20 and be very careful of anything higher than 50. I think it is Penzoil that has an oil rated at 0W50 and another at 5W60. Pour anything less than a 30 into an old engine and the engine will drink the stuff and certain wearing points of the engine will not be supported enough.
New engines require oils with a bigger rating range, but even then, the wild ranges of some Oils are rediculous for NZ conditions, let along an engine in a Boat.
By the way, the figures like 15W40 does not mean how good an oil is. The numbers are not the viscosity of the oil in the bottle either. It is a measure of the viscosity at 0degC. But the numbers work a little differently than you would expect. In fact, the figures are actually the temperature where the oil will pour through a specific sized hole at a specific rate. So a 20w oil will take longer for 100mls to pour through the hole, than a 5W oil will. So it is more accurate to say that the figures represent the temperature the engine will be operating in. If you are in Alaska in the middle of winter, a 5W oil would be great. But it is simply not needed here in NZ even in our winter. The sea does not get that cold.
Turbos on engines in Sailboats tend to be found on smaller engines with the idea to get a light weight small footprint engine into the boat. But the result is that they tend to work much harder and thus hotter.
Many claims of oils are nothing more than advertising hypes. For instance, one particular oil does not get around the engine faster than another. Unless you have treacle for Oil. The oil pumps volume and pressure determine that. If there is a difference, it is fractions of a second. In fact there are many urban myths which mostly come from advertising. For instance, most wear from the first 90 seconds of starting the engine is another myth. The magnetic technology of Magnatec is another advertising sound bite. In fact, when it comes to the main brand non synthetic oils, the base oil comes from the same stock. The additive packages are what determine the performance of an Oil as a lubricant and that is something that as Ketchup has said, the oil companies have done a lot of testing to determine the best type, amount and range of chemicals to out in the additive pack.
Synthetics are another mine field. There are good synths and a lot of hype synths on the market. Synthetic oils are still made from standard base stock Mineral Oil. But the quality starts with the quality of the stock to start with. After that, the molecular properties are played with to create a synthetic. Mostly Synthetics are better at longevity. The ability to stay in the engine longer and still work. They can also usually withstand higher heat without breaking down, can maintain a viscosity better over a wide range of temperature. But many synths simply do not stand up to the claims. If you want the best you can buy, the Oil that stands at the top of the pile is Amzoil. And that is supported by many independent tests.
     But sometimes a Synthetic can be too good. And also why an additive in a bottle can be bad. Diesels MUST have a certain amount of friction to keep the Rings sealed against the Bore. Too slippery and the Engine will use oil and at worse case, can even glaze a Bore and that is because a Boat engine can often be working at a cooler temp than a Truck engine.
HOWEVER!!! It is not just about how good an Oil is. Providing it is a good brand, all Oil is slippery. The really important factors are firstly for a Diesel, detergent. The Detergent is what keep the Carbon suspended in the Oil so as the deposits can be taken to the filter to be removed. The next is removing heat. Oil is responsible for about 40% of the engines cooling. then there is protection from Acids and combustion by products that can cause metals to corrode.
To Sum up. You can't beat regular oil/filter changes. Even with a good synthetic. But the rule of thumb is, cheaper oils need more regular changing. Top end minerals will give better protection than cheap, especially in high temp/power applications. Synths will give longer service, but this area is a mine field of what is good and what s worth the money. Just because it says Synth does not always mean it is better than a top Mineral and semi synth. But the really good ones, and there really is only one that will stand up to the claims, can produce extreme change cycles, which in the end makes the oil very cheap, providing the engine does not burn it. For instance, my Car has changes at 50,000Ks. I use a top filter and change that at 10,000Ks. the oil still looks almost new at change time. And of you are doing very high K's, then it saves servicing time and costs as well.
Sorry, that was a much longer post than I intended.

[Guest Ketchup]

Spot on wheels and I might just add...

 

Many of the aftermarket additives are just a blend of a VII (viscosity indext improver) and a anti wear additive.

 

They do nothing for your car except thicken the oil (so it sounds better and burns less oil)... but they do create sludge!

 

But the worst thing is...

 

THe Oil scientists design test and produce a top oil that is finely / scientifically proven to a formula that is tested... then soemone adds a additive and "BOOM" the original oil is instantly compromised.

 

Also...

 

These little dditive Bottles are sold as a "pour into any car" product! How can that be science and good chemistry if one bottle works in every sump size from 2litres to 8 litres?...

 

It cant!... it just a dud!

[wheels 543]

Exactly Ketchup. In fact, the engine is nothing less than a little Chemistry lab. You have Heat, Agitation, Acids and other Chemicals being produced by Combustion, and then you add a complex mix of chemicals we call Lubricating Oil to the lab. Lube Oil is complex. It's not just refined Dino Oil. The additive packs are full of very complicated Chemical Formula's.
By the way, many Oil companies and that includes here in NZ, simply mix Oils to their secret recipe of Herbs and spices by using three components. They have the Base stock of Oil. That Base stock is often the same thing for all Lubricating Oils. Just like making a cup of coffee, you have a cup of mostly water and then you add Coffee, maybe sugar and maybe Milk and the Sugar could be White, Brown and so on and the Milk could be green top, light blue top, dark blue top etc etc.
 

I am not an expert...yet...still lots to learn, as am playing with this area of Hydrocarbons in my professional life now.
 

DI Package

 Detergent Inhibitor package, is a thick dark concentrate containing most of the performance additives needed to formulate an oil to the Engine manufactures requirements. DI packs are not made by the Oil Company, but by Additive Companies.
Lubrizol is the largest.
Oronite (a Chevron company).
Infineum (Exxon, Mobil/Shell joint venture).

The additive packs contain the following.

Dispersants: The largest component of a Lube Oil and what sets Diesel Lube Oil apart from Petrol Lube Oil. Mostly Polyamine Chemistry, have “polar heads” that attach to acids and solids such as soot, and a hydrocarbon tail that keeps it all in suspension until removed by the filter or oil change. 

Detergents: Also polar in nature. They are “organometalic” products, that remove and prevent deposits sticking to the engine internals.Detergents are “overbased”, or contain more metal atoms than they really want to, and are used to neutralize acid by-products. there are also “neutral” detergents that are better at cleaning the Engine internals.
The most common organometals used are Calcium, Magnesium, and Sodium. The organic portions are usually sulfonates, phenates, and salicylates.

Friction Modifiers: Esters which attach to metal surfaces to improve lubricity. (Mostly how Magnatec gets it's name) FMs are used to improve fuel economy and viscosity of the Oil. in fact, if you have used Mooreys, you will note that as soon as you add that stuff, the Oil suddenly "picks up" and runs around everything. That adds work to the engine as it now has to deal with the oil not wanting to fall away. Think of it as trying to run with thick Mud on your boots. The Viscosity modifier works by making the Oil fall away. But it does not lesson the EP (elastopolymer) or shear strength of the Oil.that keeps the metal from the metal in a bearing for instance.

Seal Conditioners: They keep seals soft and sealing..

Zinc Dialkyldithiophosphate: Or “ZDDP”, this is the Magical stuff that is really what all Lube Oils actually are. It's the anti-wear, extreme pressure, and anti-oxidant additive and Moses used it in his Triumph Motorbike. It's in the Bible. "the roar of Moses' Triumph is heard in the hills". 
It is so effective and low cost that it is virtually irreplaceable. Although it contains Phospherous and that is bad for Catalysts, but there is no alternative because it is cheap and good. To try reducing the level, Molybdenum and other ashless anti-oxidants are added and that tends to be why there are expensive Oils. Molybdenum anti-wear compounds and ashless anti-oxid. There are three different types of ZDDP's and that is also why the difference in prices of Lube oils, because they have a direct effect on service life.

Anti-Oxidants:  Oxidation, the reaction with oxygen, is the main cause of oil thickening and left unchecked will lead to varnish and carbon deposits as well. it is a major headache for me as it is so complex trying to get the cracking of Hydrocarbons just right so as to produce mostly Saturated Hydrocarbons. 
Easy to think of like this. Three links of chain. one centre link and the two links each end cut in half to make a U shape. Think of the U as able to grab onto an Oxygen. That is called unsaturated. If we can produce three closed links, that means it can't grab and oxygen. You either crack the Hydrocarbons to produce closed links or you add an antioxidant to close that link before Oxygen can attach itself.
With the ZDDP being reduced, phenolics and amines are being increased.

Rust & Corrosion Inhibitors: These additives are smaller in dosage and are designed to protect iron alloys and yellow metals from corrosion induced by oxygen, acids and water. Once again, Magnatec Oil, except it is in all Oils.

Pour Point Depressants: Polymers that stop Oils from waxing.

Anti-Foams: Solid Silicons that are microscopic, but act like Sand and "pop" the walls of the bubbles. Foam traps heat.

Diluent Oil: Or the "carrier oil" is a plain simple mineral oil and can make up to as much as 25% of the DI pack.

Viscosity Index Improvers: Abbreviated VIIs, these are large scale polymers, which improve the viscosity index of the finished oil and is what determines the weighting of the Oil, but also stops the Oil from thinning too much as it heats up.
How it does this is very interesting (well it is for me) but so complex I could write and entire thread on just that alone.
The Base oil is the same. So I won't and thus here is the end....if anyone made it this far.

[SloopJohnB 322]

 

They do nothing for your car except thicken the oil (so it sounds better and burns less oil)... but they do create sludge!

 

 

 

Might have stopped all those oil leaks from the old morrie minor on dad's driveway    

[Guest 000]

My god! It's all far too complicated for me.

So back to my original post, if I get an oil where all the little numbers on the bottle conform to all the little numbers describing oil specifications in the workshop manual then all is sweet - provided that I get a big name brand and stay away from additives.

I should add that the engine runs for approximately only 250hrs/year, and that I change oil and filters annually. My understanding is that oil is affected by age, perhaps more than engine run time. By this I mean that once oil has been involved in the combustion process, it starts to degrade, regardless of how many hours the engine subsequently runs. True?

[Guest Ketchup]

My god! It's all far too complicated for me.

So back to my original post, if I get an oil where all the little numbers on the bottle conform to all the little numbers describing oil specifications in the workshop manual then all is sweet - provided that I get a big name brand and stay away from additives.

I should add that the engine runs for approximately only 250hrs/year, and that I change oil and filters annually. My understanding is that oil is affected by age, perhaps more than engine run time. By this I mean that once oil has been involved in the combustion process, it starts to degrade, regardless of how many hours the engine subsequently runs. True?

Not really. The old degrades by running it not by storage (unless contaminants are getting in somewhere)

 

The less your motor runs the better the oil should be.

 

Why ... we'll, in the "pre designed /enginnered" additive package (the oil company adds to give the performance and Pass the standards/tests) there is some "trick" stuff added to keep the oil attached to all the moving parts when not in use.

 

Thus may not be present I'm all oils or be of lesser quality. (Castrol use a magnetic particle to do this trick.. others use really sticky stuff (see below)

 

This additive (can't remember the name but Paratek?keeps coming into my head... wheels?) Not only protects the metal but greatly reduces wear on start up.

 

Start up is where most of the engine wear is caused.

 

A "approved" oil may not have this in their additive package and as such your motor will suffer more wear than a motor doing 2500 hr's per year with the good oil.

 

That's the good oil!

[Steve Pope 243]

Re additives, I know of top dressing pilots who swear by "Moreys" I would expect that they must have a good reason to have faith in such a product. Any opinions on this brand??

[Guest Ketchup]

Is this a oil or petrol additive.

 

Presume oil...

 

Steve, the biggest "at risk" part of the avaiation industry is the top dressing market!

 

The second biggest "provider" of air plane malfunctions is the Sky diving industry.

 

Guess what!... they both use the same planes.

 

Why?... because the people involved and the standards they employ are over "agriculturaL"

 

Until recently "top dressing" planes were regulated fairly loosely! (Until that crash down south where a dodgy part was found to have caused its demise.... along with stoned pilots!)

 

If Moreys sign a document complying with the engine oil standards, when their product is added to another suppliers oil, (and thus voids the original oil suppliers liabilty) then good on them.... but I doubt they would!

 

In my mind this pilot is taking a huge risk and if his motor had a in flight issue and it was found to be oil related, he would be in big trouble.

 

The science of adding a "unknown" additive to a approved and tested oil is dumb.The fact the original chemistry of the the oil is compromised by addition of a additive should put the Pilot off doing this.

 

But even more scary is that fact the pilot has now become the "oil Chemist" puts him at risk and voids any warranty/support/Iinsurance etc.. he may claim for.

 

I sold a lot of oil to the aviation market. But we kept well away from The Cowboy end of the market and avoided the Top dresser/sky diving maintenance crew like a rash.

 

Some of these guys had the mentality that "if it works I'm my car it must be good for my plane"

 

I known a few pilots do this type of thing and I know they have engineers who strip down the motors and find them to be OK after using this stuff. (But without comparing to not using this stuff) But that is luck more than Google managememt... and as we know ... eventually luck runs out.

 

http://www.moreyoil.co.nz/category/products/

 

I dont see any Aviation approvals or recommendations there.

 

But here are some they might want to get...

 

 

SAE J-1899

 

Avco Lycoming 301F (Service Bulletin 1014J and revisions, 446C & 471)

 

Teledyne Continental MHS-24B (Service Bulletin M81-11 and revisions)

 

Pratt & Whitney All radial engines (Service Bulletin 1183 revision R)

FAA Airworthiness Directive 80-04-03

[wheels 543]

Top Dressing Pilots?? Are you allowed to put things like that in an aircraft?

CrisC, sorry dude, got all nerdy on you and never really answered your question. Although what is your engine? and how much oil do you need. Because some brands sell only 4ltr packs, some have 5ltr packs and you can also get 10ltr containers. 20ltr tend to be more commercial retailers and I doubt you have an engine that big.
Simply you can not go wrong with any of the main brands.
Repco now seem to be selling oil under their own Brand name and I have no clue as to what it is. For that reason, I personally wouldn't buy the stuff, but it could well be a good oil. Repco certainly don't make the stuff though and I hate it when companies start stating things like "Theirs" when it simply is not. I wonder what else they are stating that is not the full truth.
All of the following brands sell good oils even in their cheapest range. You won't go wrong with any of them.

SuperCheap sell Castrol. which was also BP once.
Valvoline is a good brand and I have always liked their lubricants. They have a new "green" oil, 50% recycled. Now interestingly, recycled Oil can actually be better than new Oil. It is well priced.
Penzoil is OK but have stupid unnecessary viscosity ranges. Gulfwestern is OK.
Total is a French Oil and supposed to be good, but don't know who stock that in Auckland.
BNT have an Oil, I forget the name of at the mo, but nothing wrong with it. The big plus with BNT is that they sell Donaldson Filters and they are the rollsroyce of Filter quality and not all that more expensive. where as Supercheap sell Ryco, which are OK, but not as good as Donaldson.
I would try for a 20W40 if you can find it, but 15W40 will be OK too.

So take your pick.
 

[Guest 000]

Thanks for that Wheels.

Back in the good ole days (last year) we had a service station here in Whangamata that sold the 3 main oil brands. Now we've gone all up market and have an auto store that sells a huge range of oils - most of which I've never heard of, and there is a big price difference between the different 4 litre packs, and I'm always keen to save a dollar where I can. However, based on the above replies I think I am well advised to stick to the big name brands, and damn the expense.

[Guest Ketchup]

Top Dressing Pilots?? Are you allowed to put things like that in an aircraft?

CrisC, sorry dude, got all nerdy on you and never really answered your question. Although what is your engine? and how much oil do you need. Because some brands sell only 4ltr packs, some have 5ltr packs and you can also get 10ltr containers. 20ltr tend to be more commercial retailers and I doubt you have an engine that big.

Simply you can not go wrong with any of the main brands.

Repco now seem to be selling oil under their own Brand name and I have no clue as to what it is. For that reason, I personally wouldn't buy the stuff, but it could well be a good oil. Repco certainly don't make the stuff though and I hate it when companies start stating things like "Theirs" when it simply is not. I wonder what else they are stating that is not the full truth.

All of the following brands sell good oils even in their cheapest range. You won't go wrong with any of them.

SuperCheap sell Castrol. which was also BP once.

Valvoline is a good brand and I have always liked their lubricants. They have a new "green" oil, 50% recycled. Now interestingly, recycled Oil can actually be better than new Oil. It is well priced.

Penzoil is OK but have stupid unnecessary viscosity ranges. Gulfwestern is OK.

Total is a French Oil and supposed to be good, but don't know who stock that in Auckland.

BNT have an Oil, I forget the name of at the mo, but nothing wrong with it. The big plus with BNT is that they sell Donaldson Filters and they are the rollsroyce of Filter quality and not all that more expensive. where as Supercheap sell Ryco, which are OK, but not as good as Donaldson.

I would try for a 20W40 if you can find it, but 15W40 will be OK too.

So take your pick.

 

Yip! Agree wheels.

 

Just be aware of some of the unknown brands.

 

Nylon seems to talk a good story, but they have nothing innovative I their oil. But do talk a good story.

 

Also some oils work better in some engines. ( but that is very rare nowdays

 

Back in the day Mobil had huge issues with new Mitzi,s (mainly the 4 cyl petrol motors) They would burn through the Mobil mineral oil like their was no tommorow.

 

Mitzi dealerships, who were signed up to Mobil's supply contracts, ignored their supply agreements and quietly changed all their Magna' and sigma's to Castrol GTX2 and the problem vanished

 

The same thing applied to the gear box oil. THe 1st to 2nd gear change issues were resolved with a change to semi synthetic oil.

[Steve Pope 243]

Well the topdressing pilot is now well into his 70's, unusual I know! The only engine that I know he had trouble with was a turbo prop that periodically used to run away and could only be controlled with the ign switch, made for some hairy moments until he could land. After a few of these "moments" he went back to I think a Lycoming piston engine for the sake of a few less grey hairs.

[Guest Ketchup]

The aviation market is very safe and the motors very reliable.... mainly due to the high service, equipment and supply standards.

 

The better the standards and the high the spec the better the result.

 

This reduces the luck element

[wheels 543]

Nylon seems to talk a good story, but they have nothing innovative I their oil. But do talk a good story.

 

If you are referring to Nulon, it's rubbish as well.

There have been Lawsuits against 9 different Lubricant additive companies in recent years.

 

 

The same thing applied to the gear box oil. THe 1st to 2nd gear change issues were resolved with a change to semi synthetic oil.

A problem that haunted many Japanese Gearboxes and it was due to the wrong viscosity being used. The most common Gear oil till then was good ole 80/90. But the new Jap gearboxes needed a much thinner oil and a 75W had been called for by them. But at that time, few made a 75W gear oil.

 

 

[too_tall 15]

Often a manufacturer of engines will offer their own branded oil - Sure, its made by one of the big companies and is simply a re-branded product they already sell. But it is generally a very decent quality oil and has offered the manufacturer very low warranty claims. I use John Deere's Powerguard oil - and have tractors which have run it for 19,000 hours with only maintenance on the engine as opposed to repairs. Those same motors get the oil changed annually only. We also run that in the yacht ( Perkins 4-154 ). Buying oil in 200L drums makes it cheap, but you do need some significant sump capacity over the fleet to warrant that volume.