Safety issues - from the A2B thread

[Island Time 1,239]

I agree that it's mostly cruisers who use these tactics. However, even a real race boat might need it in a really serious, prolonged storm. And a Parachute can help you win - for example in 70+knots on the nose, I've never seen any sailing vessel capable of making headway to weather, and a Parachute will help you minimize distance lost. As well as let the storm pass over you quicker than running off.....

[Chewing Gum 17]

At the time Pelagian was in the storm there was a single hander whose boat ended up on the beach near Raglan I think. he was using a Jordan series drogue which by all accounts worked very well, he just ran out of sea room. I have not not used one but do have one on board. My feeling is that the motion running before would be much better and it is claimed there is a lot less strain on the rudder than using a parachute but it sounds like the motueka one does work well. My understanding is that the drogue definitely does not require anyone on deck. Squid - what method of retrieval do you use ?

[Fish 0]

At the time Pelagian was in the storm there was a single hander whose boat ended up on the beach near Raglan I think. he was using a Jordan series drogue which by all accounts worked very well, he just ran out of sea room.

That was Frolic 3. Sad story. The guys goal was to sail around the North Island I think, boat was really well set up, he put a lot of effort into it. When he got home his granddaughter went and got her piggy bank out so he could buy a new boat.

He started off something like either 40 nm or 60 nm off the coast, just was moving too fast with the series drogue.

[Island Time 1,239]

Yes, that was a sad event.

 

For those interested, Island Time was on a parachute for two and a bit days, wind gusting over 80, and "drifted" 60 odd miles if I remember correctly. Less that 1/2 a knot average. In the same situation (lee shore, but we had 100 miles) we'd do the same again.....

[Guest]

Sailing the US West coast (washington and Oregon) is a bit like the west coast of NZ, prevailing onshore winds, prone to shitty weather and not a lot of places to run and hide. We chose to go wide and I didn't really feel comfortable till 100 miles out.

I know I can get the boatspeed down to 1kn, but more than 4 days and I'd have been out of runway.

[Chewing Gum 17]

I guess there is a possibilty with Frolic that he didn't have enough cones on his drogue for the size of boat. I think he was moving at about 2 knots

[Guest]

IMHO 2-4 kn is about right for comfort and safety in open water in a boat that length, I don't know if he attempted to slow down further or turn and heave to.

He had a hell of a trip and it didn't seem right to pester him over details at the time.

[Guest]

There's a problem with both drogues and sea anchors and that is that once deployed then you are committed to being mostly not maneuverable. If a ship is headed towards your vessel there's not a lot, except cutting the line, that can be done to get out of the way. If the crew is below that really is a dangerous situation.

You left running out of your list Ogre. Not an option for you? John Vigor talks about Scudding, that is running and catching waves and sort of riding them at a 30 degree angle as a last resort in an extreme event.

[Guest]

In my mind it's just a matter of degree. I start off with full sail if I'm downwind, as it increases the sails come down (I like to get the main down early - runs fine under just a headsail). As the wind increases you end up at just a storm jib, at that point the drogue goes out. Then if it continues to increase the jib comes down and you are under bare poles and drogue. Close the hatches and get below.

 

I don't understand wanting to be at an angle to the waves (any angle). Not sure what he's getting at there. Anyone?

 

I read it again, he must be talking about less wind/sea than we are. I remember under bare poles and drogue on a heavy 38 ft boat sliding down the faces of waves and wiping out at the bottom then having 20ft of water go over the deck. All we were trying to do was stay in line with the waves.

[Chewing Gum 17]

Chances of running into a ship are not great at sea especially in this part of the world. There are a lot of cruisers who do not even keep a watch as they regard the chances are so slim and of course singlehanders very seldom keep watch. I am not saying that I would do the same but on the west coast of the North Island we saw no vessels at all.

[Guest]

Also - in the sort of weather we are discussing I consider the risk of being swept overboard greater than that of being attacked by a wayward ship, so I prefer to just stay below and poke my head out once in a while (not that you can see anything anyway.)

[Guest]

A Vhf usually only has a range 12 - 16 nms. How far is three kings from the nearest VHF receiving station

VHF can go a lot more than 16 miles. 3 weeks ago I was chatting to a dude on via VHF who was in Raglan, I was over Kawau at the time. 50-60 odd miles there I'm thinking. It's all to do with what you have, how it's set up, height and if there is anything in between. Which is the reason that just prior to Xmas I was talking to Maritime Radio via the VHF when we were still north of the Kings, close to them though, 10 miles north there abouts at a guess. The reason I could do that is there is a station on top of Cape Reinga so had exceleent view of a high ariel, all good things when you are wanting range.

 

The Simrad fleet has to call CG when rounding Lt Barrier which it does with ease generally, but then it may all be repeating thru Kawau I suppose. But then that's still 15 odd miles and I know many use handhelds with low power at no altitude.

 

VHF is "reliable" to line of sight in "normal" conditions. It will not ground wave (follow the curvature of the earth) or reflect off any layers of the ionosphere but what it can do when conditions are right is "tropospheric ducting" where the EMF will follow the hot and cold layers of atmosphere and as such 1600nm would be possible but its RARE this happens. It can bounce off jet aircraft vapor trails extending the distance!!! Reality is, HEIGHT combined with correct resonance of antenna and one that's polar diagram is low plus low loss feeder and good earthing will produce the best result omnidirectional without then pulling the polar field in a particular direction as with a "yagi" antenna designed to offer a greater front to back ratio as opposed to a omnidirectional antenna.

Most yachts mast mount a 1/2 wave antenna which is the best option as height equates to distance at VHF (and higher frequencies) and high gain (5/8 through to co-linear) antennas polar diagram when at an angle (vessel heeled over... multi hulls can ignore this!! means the maximum signal is LOST due to the angle of the resonator to earth.

Hope that helps!!!

(ZL1FOX)

[Guest]

I believe it was a technique used by the Frenchman Motessier where he surfed large waves at an angle to the face so that they did not dive into the wave in front.

[Guest]

Reality is, HEIGHT combined with correct resonance of antenna and one that's polar diagram is low plus low loss feeder and good earthing will produce the best result omnidirectional without then pulling the polar field in a particular direction as with a "yagi" antenna designed to offer a greater front to back ratio as opposed to a omnidirectional antenna.

Most yachts mast mount a 1/2 wave antenna which is the best option as height equates to distance at VHF (and higher frequencies) and high gain (5/8 through to co-linear) antennas polar diagram when at an angle (vessel heeled over... multi hulls can ignore this!! means the maximum signal is LOST due to the angle of the resonator to earth.

Hope that helps!!!

(ZL1FOX)

 

Aaaaaaaaaaggggggggghhhhhhhhhhhhhhh

 

SPEAK ENGLISH MAN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Guest]

Actually, Google is an amazing thing........phrase by phrase I've unraveled the code and do you know what Wetdream?

 

You're right!!!

[Guest]

I read it again, he must be talking about less wind/sea than we are. I remember under bare poles and drogue on a heavy 38 ft boat sliding down the faces of waves and wiping out at the bottom then having 20ft of water go over the deck. All we were trying to do was stay in line with the waves.

What are your thoughts on maybe the drouge being the cause or a large input into the wipeouts and waves rolling over?

 

Just saying that as I brought a 39ft 2/3rds keeled heavy back from the Islands and got 64+ knots, the wind gear maxed out at 64 and the needle was hard on the stopper. Towed the 2nd anchor rode in a big loop just to add drag to her arse, went bare poles and steered 10-15 degrees off dead down wind. We were hand steering as the AP's had died in the prior days and the lads decided to push thru if we could. Once sorted we had no problem at all with the biggest being the occasional massive power slides at the bottom of the odd wave, the odd one had me thinking FARK over we go but we never did and never really quite felt like she wanted to thinking back. I went that few degrees off downhill as she'd dive in the the wave face and go whatever way she wanted too so off gave me a known direction of broach, Surprisingly she was way better to handle than wobbling at speed dead downwind. No real feel it wanted to go all mad women on us nor get rolled by waves, any more then you're gonna get in that sort of weather. A Bob Stewart thing-a-me-bob, the next size up from the Matangi called a ........ I can't remember

 

So I'm thinking and don't really know but if they are similar boats maybe the drogue wasn't the plus it was expected to be??

[Guest]

4) a sea anchor - this one normally generates quite some debate. I have never used one. I prefer a drogue. A sea anchor holds the bow to the wind and stops the boat. Many people have used them successfully. On the down side there are stories of difficulties getting them deployed, and retrieving them. I picked up a delivery once where they had had to cut it loose in 15kn coz they couldn't get it back on board. Your deck hardware and anti chafe protection need to be 100%. You need to go onto the bow to deploy - not my favourite place.

 

"this one normally generates quite some debate". You are quite right. As I understand it, they came from WW2 Catalina pilots who used parachutes to stop the plane drifting when picking up downed airmen.

On a trip from Wellington to Auckland I got caught at Cape "Turnagain" (aptly named!) and had a Aussie "Tasman" 15 on board with the RECOMMENDED warp; 120 meters NYLON plated 1". The vessel was a Van der Stadt "Seahorse" design cutter of 4.5 tonne and 10m. Deploying was easy and the effect DRAMATIC! That was the upside, when the storm finally abated I saw to my horror the recovery float had cleared off and the warp now hung off the bow roller 120m DOWN!

Naturally I tried to haul it in, it was like being anchored to the ocean floor! Thats when I noticed (after a cup of tea and looking for the knife) that every time the bow rose on a wave... the warp came up then went SLACK on the down! A few loops around the sheet winch and what seemed hours later of taking up the slack on each wave, up it came!

Despite the Purdeys (and others!) poo pooing them, I think they should be compulsory for all offshore cruisers but.. (BUT!!) they MUST BE RIGGED AS PER THE INSTRUCTIONS. $1600 mine cost (from memory.. was a while ago) and the warp was about another $500. The warp IS IMPORTANT. Many cut costs with other fibres or shorter warps. DON'T! I used a leghth of chain over the bow roller to prevent chaffing and the warp was like a large bungy. The boat behaved perfectly in 60 plus winds.

I will say this. If you get one, PRACTICE deploying and retrieval at leased once.

[Guest]

Hope that helps!!!

Holy crap, how can people know that yet their head doesn't explode?

 

But damn handy timing to find out you do and have yet to go POP!!!! So stand by as I see a VHF ariel thread coming to a forum surprisingly near you very shortly. Island Time mentioned something in the AIS discussion I think is worth having a furter yack about. So between you smarties and us thickies can learn a few things re ariels

 

For a frecking start how do you spell 'ariel'. No matter what I try my spell checker always says it's wrong.

[Guest]

SPEAK ENGLISH MAN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

هو "موثوق بها" لخط الأفق في ظروف "طبيعية". انها لن موجة الأرض (يتبع انحناء الأرض) أو تعكس قبالة أي طبقات من الأيونوسفير ولكن ما يمكن القيام به عندما تتوفر الظروف الملائمة هي "مجاري التروبوسفير" حيث EMF ستتبع طبقات الساخنة والباردة من الجو وعلى هذا النحو سوف 1600nm يكون من الممكن ولكن يحدث هذا نادر لها. يمكن أن ترتد طائرات نفاثة لبخار مسارات تمديد مسافة! الحقيقة هي، ارتفاع جنبا إلى جنب مع صدى الصحيح من هوائي واحد وهذا المخطط القطبي هو سوف منخفض بالإضافة إلى انخفاض تغذية خسارة والتأريض جيدة تنتج أفضل نتيجة احادي دون ثم سحب الحقل القطبية في اتجاه معين كما هو الحال مع "ياغي" هوائي مصممة لتوفر لل جبهة أكبر لدعم نسبة بالمقارنة مع هوائي متعدد الإتجاهات.

معظم اليخوت الصاري جبل هوائي 1/2 موجة الذي هو أفضل خيار وارتفاع يعادل المسافة في VHF (وترددات أعلى) وتحقيق مكاسب عالية (5/8 من خلال التعاون إلى الخطية) هوائيات الرسم القطبية عندما بزاوية (سفينة بكعب أجسام أكثر ... متعددة يمكن تجاهل هذا! يعني فقدان الحد الأقصى للإشارة بسبب زاوية مرنان إلى الأرض.

على أمل أن يساعد!

(ZL1FOX)

[wheels 543]

The time we got caught off Karori and trying to enter Wellington, I got to a point where I had to turn at a right angle top the Sea. Going back in the story first, as we were off Kaori, I was planning ahead and thinking, how the heck do I go side on to these things. We were already falling down the back of the things, I really thought going side on would simply roll us right over. We had no sails up and were motoring and I thought OK, lets unfurl the headsail and that should stabilize us to a point of where I could at least steer to the best positions as they may open up perhaps. Out went the Headsail and in almost instantly tore to shreds. So after a battle, I managed to get the tatters wound back in. The time came to turn and I picked the best wave and went for it. What amazed me was we sat upright. The share volume of our Hull stopped us from rolling. We simply went up the face and slipped down the back. It was a huge relief to me and in a lot of respects, it was actually more comfortable than steering straight up the face of the things and most certainly a lot nicer than falling off the back of them.

So what I am trying to say here is that it is very much a "it depends" on the type of Hull as to how a Boat will handle a Sea in any particular situation.