Coastal Divisions

[Absolution 7]

Maybe a sort of promotion/relegation thing. If you finish in the top 3 (random picked number) of your Div next year you race in the Div above that one. At the other end the bottom 3 drop into the Div below.

 

If the "offshore" PHRF for these "outliers" was changed up/down based on their performance then many of them would move up/down a division.

 

Have a look at markm's comparison of performance vs PHRF and look at all the canters in there:

http://www.racetrack.org.nz/compare_ratings.php

 

I think one of the big things that needs to be considered is that the canting and water ballast boats tend to do much better on a longer course when they do not have grind keels over or pump water into their ballast tanks.

 

Personally I don't want to see the canters etc pushed out into their own division. If I owned one of them then a large part of the attraction would be to stick it to the big boats.

 

Having said that I would like to see PHRFs get adjusted more often to try and find a better balance.

[Guest]

You are bang-on Fineline. Sticking it to the big boys is fun ( in the favoured direction )

 

Getting away from the Coastal...... We will probably do Bay Week in Tongue Twister. Dont have a show of winning while doing short coarse stuff but will enter anyway. And we wont be asking any boats to get out of our division so we can win !! .

[wal 27]

How many of the CC entrants actually race hoping to win - realistically?

 

I suspect we're busily trying to appease 1/2 a dozen yachties?

 

 

 

Has any one noticed that winners in Divs 1 and 2 were Ferrisseses (Ferrii?) from the BoI?

 

We should just ban them and we'd all be sweet

[Guest]

So you suggesting a name change as well Wal. Something like the 'Coastal Cruising Rally' sound OK?

 

Interesting concept spending all the time, money and effort to enter a race just to go for a yacht. One would wonder why bother and spend the coin on beers and ladies with low moral instead. I'm sure the stories of that weekend would long outlast any from a CC.

 

Ever thought boats don't enter as they know they have no show of even an outside chance? Sooner or later those numbers, and they are definitely out there, will be larger than those who do enter. Outcome = a damn good very close CC race between all 20 boats that entered. A bit extreme there for sure but far from impossible.

[Zoe 8]

I think a handful of boats want to win on line overall, and the rest want to succeed within their divisions. If they can't win on line they want to get a good handicap result.

 

THe theory when SSANZ altered their divisions that if you were racing a heavy upwind race, you'd be handicapped similarly to toehrs of your type - so you k new you'd done well or badly becuase of your sailing, not because you were blessed or cursed wtih a certain set of conditions.

[Cameron 99]

I agree it's time to review the division structure.

 

First I'd start with the so called "Class" boats

 

If they are a genuine class then that's fine but for the likes of Young 11's they lose class status and get allocated a division based on PHRF

 

For the genuine "class" boats (best examples being Young 88's Farr 1020's and Stewart 34's) reassess the division the class goes into based on the average PHRF of the top 3 or 5 boats in the class. This stops the likes of the top Stewart's being put in Div 4 when their performance says they should be a Div 3 boat.

[Guest]

agree with cameron and a canting keel division, trailer boat, sports boat, caravan, up wind PHRF & down wind PHRF rather than inshore and offshore ie tounge twister upwind .800 down wind .950

[floatsome 0]

I think you are getting on the right track with this discussion. I would also like to see the PHRF handicap assessed in such a way that the potential performance of a boat is taken into account as well, thereby giving the owner a challenge to get the most out of his ownership and in so doing learn a bit more. Too many boats are give an arbritary handicap

that provides no challenge to do better, or worse still boats are sailed badly, get the number down and then tweak them up with crew, new sails, keels etc and take a hollow victory, which takes the handicapper too long to catch up with despite having the necessary declaration. Meanwhile the guys that sail year in year out at their potential end up with average results and get pissed off...

[ScottiE 174]

I would also like to see the PHRF handicap assessed in such a way that the potential performance of a boat is taken into account as well, thereby giving the owner a challenge to get the most out of his ownership and in so doing learn a bit more. Too many boats are give an arbritary handicap

that provides no challenge to do better, or worse still boats are sailed badly, get the number down and then tweak them up with crew, new sails, keels etc and take a hollow victory, which takes the handicapper too long to catch up with despite having the necessary declaration. Meanwhile the guys that sail year in year out at their potential end up with average results and get pissed off...

I thought IRC was supposed to be 'the solution' to that arguement. It was at least a well thought out approach to a non performance based handicap in my view.

[Guest Saturday Night Special]

IRC is too costly if your running a budget operation

[Guest]

IRC also smacks yachts that plane downwind, especially if they are small.

[Guest Saturday Night Special]

this has become quite interesting ,What we have now is enough information with CC to create its own Handicap called the coastal Handicap you race with what you are given or Fark off . some classes have 25 + years of history some one like or not it can be done .

[Absolution 7]

IRC also smacks yachts that plane downwind, especially if they are small.

 

...and you get a penalty if you have both gennakers and spinnakers so no good for Fineline unless we get an IRC cert that excludes the gennakers.

[wal 27]

OK, I have a 30 footer with not a lot of lead, doesn't exactly fly upwind but gets a rating of 1.132

 

A Cookson 39 (Akatea) has a rating of 1.139

 

I wouldn't even bother rolling over in bed to look out the curtains to wonder whether I should think about entering

[Guest Saturday Night Special]

as i say we have history to create a handicap Fark the rest. Wal see your point

[markm 32]

nzrat, we do have the history but I'm not sure how much it helps. Certainly some will prefer it, others will suddenly become a whole lot less critical of PHRF.

 

Attached list of average rating in all coastal classics for any boat to have done at least one in the last three years).

[Guest]

Hey nzrat. What boat do you own. ?

[Guest]

Interested to know how the results would have been calculated if the boats all had an up- wind handicap and a down-wind handicap as the race had a bit of both.

Next we will have an introduction of wind strength handicaps. Above 15k and below 15 k so the handicapper then has to work out what wind strength a boat had during part of the race, just incase that particular boat might win. And we cant have that can we

 

As for any other handicap system, NZ just dosnt give a toss. We have had the 1/4 ton rating through to the one ton cup. We have tried IMS, ORC, and IRC to name a few. All have died in NZ though we still have a small number of boats hanging on to one or the other. I have been involved with all of them and cant keep up and quite frankly dont want to. ( nor can I afford it. Like a lot of other kiwi yachties )

 

Cant see the point in making changes to PHRF just for one race.. Last week we had our arrse kicked in a 25 mile race where two thirds was on the wind. Were beaten-up on line and PHRF but will be back. There will be another race that we will enjoy.

 

For those who cant beat the canters, why not join them, I know of 3 that are on the market.

[MrWolf 0]

If you want to beat the canters, you can do it for a lot less money by getting yourself a multihull !

 

unfortunately there's is only one handicap winner per division, we aren't as politically correct in multihulls, and we are big enough to all settle for the one winner per race, not needing a win in IRC or ORC or Phrf or General Handicap to keep all our owners happy

[Guest]

oops, SORRY about that Mr Wolf. I forgot about the rafts .

Agree on both coments too !

One hadicap per division. ( and Line ) At the moment it is PHRF for keel boats. Though there is ORC and IRC for those who think it is important. I had an IRC rating for Thirsty Work and was shafted so never renewed it. Didnt even think about it for Tongue Twister. The number of boats in those divisions speaks for itself.

There is no General handicap in the Coastal.