Guest Posted June 18, 2012 Share Posted June 18, 2012 Now lets see if this works.... I have a licence. the other day I had an accident ( that is a calamity where both parties are at fault but neither will admit to it) So what did I learn from this? Well, the bloody licence did nothing to prevent the accident. the bloody licence did nothing to protect me and the bloody licence will probably not save me from my own stupidity next time. ergo the bloody licence is a waste of time. It serves one purpose only, it allows the authorities to keep track of me when I speed or do things that used to be called expressions of freedom but are now frowned upon. so a licence for boats makes complete sense to me as it will get rid of all the high performance speed craft and push up the price of the only sensible boat a person should be allowed to own. An H28 Link to post Share on other sites
Megwyn 2 Posted June 18, 2012 Share Posted June 18, 2012 so a licence for boats makes complete sense to me as it will get rid of all the high performance speed craft and push up the price of the only sensible boat a person should be allowed to own. An H28 "Ya must be Dreamin' mate". (horrible horrible nightmares more like) Link to post Share on other sites
Fogg 427 Posted June 18, 2012 Share Posted June 18, 2012 Well, the bloody licence did nothing to prevent the accident. the bloody licence did nothing to protect me and the bloody licence will probably not save me from my own stupidity next time. ergo the bloody licence is a waste of time. Who said the whole point of a license is to prevent accidents? Driving licenses don't prevent car accidents per se but they make a contribution towards road safety and provide the authorities with a lever for enforcement - for the worst offenders on the roads. And the worst offenders (repeat offenders?) are the only people to fear regulation because it might bring their behaviour under the spotlight. But I don't have anything to fear from it. Link to post Share on other sites
Grinna 2 Posted June 18, 2012 Share Posted June 18, 2012 My major gripe about recreational boat licencing is more to do with the assumption that licencing will alter incident rates or reduce drownings or anything else. I don't like the drowning rate that we have in NZ. I think its tragic and in many cases avoidable if people weren't hellbent on being so stupid. It is particularly tragic when mistakes by adults end up costing the lives of kids (e.g. the recent drownings in the Manukau Harbour). Similarly, I think its very easy for people with little or no boating experience to buy themselves a small powerboat and think they can drive it like a car ... well ... its got a steering wheel and a throttle control and then you just throw out the anchor when you want to stop. Considering the number of people who probably have no real idea of the rules regarding give way at sea, navigation, weather, marine communications, prudent seamanship, or even things like critical maintenance its probably fairly miraculous that we don't have more problems on our waters than we currently do. Unfortunately, I'm cynical enough to think that any compulsory licencing that might be introduced will do pretty much nothing to prevent accidents and incidents. In theory its a great idea, but in practice you tend to get the people who generally aren't a problem signing up and playing by the rules while the ones who are poing to be the most problematic dodge the system and avoid the whole thing anyway. That's how it works with dog registration, WOFs, driver licencing and even things like firearm licencing. In addition, the best of intentions have a habit of getting warped by the actions of politicians and committees so that the end result isn't actually useful for the intended purpose and its a result that everybody compromised on but nobody actually wanted. It just becomes another layer of red tape to make it more difficult and more expensive for the honest citizens to get out on the water while being ineffective at the stated goal of reducing on-water accidents. But then again, I've been accused of being a tinfoil hat wearing, paranoid cynic. It may not be fair assumption, but I think that people who are actively involved in yacht racing probably have a pretty good handle on rights of way and avoiding collisions (though racers tend to be comfortable with much smaller separation distances between boats) while the cruising yachts and powerboats would probably be less familiar with the rules. Judging by the difficulties in avoiding collisions while simply walking along an urban footpath, I don't see a lot of hope for some individuals and just pray that they don't ever find themselves in charge of a vessel. Link to post Share on other sites
Powerboat Training 0 Posted June 18, 2012 Author Share Posted June 18, 2012 This has been a great thread to see everyone's perspective. In Ireland, there is no legal requirement for licenses. However it is socially unacceptable to buy a boat and not seek some form of professional training. The insurance also pushes people to seek education as the policy is normally twice that of a qualified sailor. In New Zealand, insurance seems to be very cheap relatively! There will always be a core of individuals who despite any requirements will find some way of hurting themselves or others. Perhaps we need some "Ghost Chips" ads for the maritime sector! Link to post Share on other sites
Fogg 427 Posted June 18, 2012 Share Posted June 18, 2012 In New Zealand, insurance seems to be very cheap relatively! Hah! Agree, yes it is. But if you say that too loudly here you'll incur the wrath of a few. Kiwis seem to have socially accepted that a 18yr-old muppet driving an Impreza Turbo deserves to pay a load more than a 45yr old in a Camry. So car insurance understood. And the events of the last couple of years in Canterbury have served to raise awareness that the real cost of home insurance needs to be much higher to reflect the true risks of living in NZ. But boat insurance is a long way behind. Whilst people are happy to spend $1,000 to insure their $10,000 car, they still complain about paying $1,000 to insure their $100,000 boat. Link to post Share on other sites
wheels 543 Posted June 18, 2012 Share Posted June 18, 2012 they still complain about paying $1,000 to insure their $100,000 boat. Where do you get insurance that cheap from AC? The other side of that coin is that the "18yr old with the Impreza" doesn't get any insurance because he can't afford it and then the old guy with the camry ends up paying when the 18yr old runs into him. NZ falls down in not making it compulsory for the 18yr old to have insurance. Plus House insurance is becoming unaffordable for some. However for boats, you do have to have insurance to be able to gain access to a Marina. Link to post Share on other sites
Fogg 427 Posted June 18, 2012 Share Posted June 18, 2012 I pay about $1000 to insure AC, insured for about $140k all up inc extras I think. Thru Neil Bailey, underwriter is NZI Marine. Link to post Share on other sites
smithy09 50 Posted June 18, 2012 Share Posted June 18, 2012 I pay around $1200 for the Marshall Wheels despite the "mast incident" last year.. Mariner.. Brilliant service too. No complaints... Link to post Share on other sites
smithy09 50 Posted June 18, 2012 Share Posted June 18, 2012 Because under a thin veil, it is spam and we all detest it. Well most do anyway. Why else would someone post to a website like this. They would be taken in a more welcome light if they had chosen to place an add here first, or at the very least, approached Squid, told him what and who they were and then Squid could have introduced them and raised the question. Otherwise I just view this kind of thing as a thin disguise at self promotion. Wheels with all due respect I think you have grabbed the wrong end of the wrong stick here. If I were them I wouldnt consider placing an ad due to the negativity they have copped when being open and honest about what they are trying to achieve. The lambasting they have been given by a few of you will serve to deter them from putting up an ad. If on the other hand they saw an open minded group of people... They haven't solicited business from anyone, and by them joining in, what makes them any different from all the other members who have marine business and have not placed ads, but have benefited from membership. Can you think of anyone Wheels? They could have come on here with a different name and said nothing about what they do. Is it not just possible that they genuinely want to start dialogue between themselves and yachties? And yes they run a commercial organisation but they are asking our opinion on what powerboaters can do to be more "neighbourly" on the water. I think it's a great idea that they ask us, after all we've all complained bitterly about the behaviour of powerboaters at times. I think we should be objective and give them the answers that will help them produce safer power boaters. Come ON! Again, welcome PBT. Second that AA. And once again welcome Andrew. Link to post Share on other sites
madyottie 82 Posted June 19, 2012 Share Posted June 19, 2012 Somewhere earlier in the thread someone asked whether insurance would be cheaper if boaties were licensed. Does that mean nobody has tried asking their insurance company? I use AMI for my trailer yacht, and although I cant remember the exact amount, they discounted me somewhere in the region of 20% because I hold relevant tickets. Back on topic... Maybe we should introduce the ICC as used in Europe? Or just some very basic entry-level qualification. It could even be run as part of the council funded community education programs. At the end of the day, if our goal is to reduce accidents, then we need to target the novices, which are not the group frequenting Crew. And if the recent drownings in Manukau are any indication, it needs to be free, or very cheap. Around my area, if it costs, or requires travel, people wont attend. Link to post Share on other sites
wheels 543 Posted June 19, 2012 Share Posted June 19, 2012 As I said, it could have been done differently and better. Even MS thought the same. Plus the other questions and introduction were not asked till afterwards. Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Posted June 19, 2012 Share Posted June 19, 2012 And if the recent drownings in Manukau are any indication It'll never pick up those sorts of boaters unless they are paid to go to a course. Link to post Share on other sites
Mothership 6 Posted June 19, 2012 Share Posted June 19, 2012 And if the recent drownings in Manukau are any indication It'll never pick up those sorts of boaters unless they are paid to go to a course. Agreed. On a couple of occasions myself or others I've been with have asked certain groups going out about life jackets, and half the replies aren't fit to be repeated. They just don't care/don't want to know. Yet; when the inevitable happens there's all the wailing and 'why did god/world take my beautiful boy/girl away from us'. Link to post Share on other sites
Mothership 6 Posted June 19, 2012 Share Posted June 19, 2012 It's generally accepted around here that you don't just turn up talking about your profession, with a link to your site as the only thing in your signature, using your profession as your forum name, and then when posting in the 'introduce yourself' section, talk about your business once more. Having said that, the gentile folk of the forum are becoming a bit more subtle, in that instead of tearing the newcomer a new one in public, took to PMing the admins with their concerns in private. Anyway; Andrew has since introduced himself and turns out he sails, so he's ok Link to post Share on other sites
Fogg 427 Posted June 19, 2012 Share Posted June 19, 2012 As I said, it could have been done differently and better. Even MS thought the same. Plus the other questions and introduction were not asked till afterwards. I guess all new members better run their posts past you beforehand in future eh? It's starting to look a bit like that around here, eh? Any risk that you don't fit the mould, you get run out of town. Link to post Share on other sites
Mothership 6 Posted June 19, 2012 Share Posted June 19, 2012 This from the person who's complaining posts are too long, and don't fit his own preferences? Right. It's not actually about fitting the mould - it's about respecting the fact that these are David's forums, and it's a business, and he sets the rules, and a little bit of acknowledgement of this isn't a bad thing (except perhaps for the narcissists among us who are apparently struggling with it). Link to post Share on other sites
Fogg 427 Posted June 19, 2012 Share Posted June 19, 2012 Hah! This from someone who complained that a new user just signed up "using your profession as your forum name" but yet MS's own forum name is HIS business name! Link to post Share on other sites
Mothership 6 Posted June 19, 2012 Share Posted June 19, 2012 Hah! This from someone who complained that a new user just signed up "using your profession as your forum name" but yet MS's own forum name is HIS business name! Well, I don't have a boat to name myself after Actually; that's been a nickname for longer than the business has been around. I also didn't come on here with my first few posts being about my business. Can we get back to the original topic now? There's actually a lot of good discussion going on, which is kind of the point of, well...forums. Link to post Share on other sites
wheels 543 Posted June 19, 2012 Share Posted June 19, 2012 But just before we head back to topic. Whether the topic is a good discussion or not, The issue still exists, that a business is promoting itself free while discussing a topic. Unless invited to by the Owner, or you are a sponsor, that kind if thing is not considered correct Forum Etiquette. On any Forum, not just this one. It is considered as Spam. Ones like KM do not promote there business and only answers a question if asked without self promotion. I think there are several that should be answering or participating far more and should not think they are self promoting, because what they have to offer is simply not self promotion. Indeed there are many marine related businesses represented on this Forum that have been here for a great deal of time and they should have a greater right to talk about them business and products than a newbie does and a newbie that has a business with no direct relation to sailing. I do consider the very first post made by someone that blatantly promotes their business does have to be considered spam. If we don't, then we have to accept and allow every and any newbie to be able to do so. Like someone promoting Sunglasses, because hey, we all need good glasses out on the water. Link to post Share on other sites
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