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Ground tackle / anchoring arrangement -- what would you do?


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I have a 2 ton keeler, 23 footer. She is a cruising boat, not a racer.

 

My ground tackle has got as far as 25lb Manson Supreme -- but please this is not a thread on the vertue of this or that anchor! :mrgreen: And I also have an (unistalled) manual anchor windlass (a Royal Lofrans).

 

I have attached a pic of the forward area of the deck.

 

From about the cleat forward is a sealed off "collision bulkhead" area filled with layers of polystyrene foam, and my anchor locker will be just aft of that. If you were wondering where the mast is, the mast will be going where the current wooden hatch cover is as she will be junk rigged.

 

In case you were wondering "doesn't that hatch forward look like an anchor locker", well that little hatch to starboard is actually storage locker for a portable petrol fuel tank. It is of course vented overboard and is a separate section compartment built in so is not actually 'below decks', and it was purpose built to fit a 12 litre fuel tank, which it does perfectly.

 

So my questions are: The Manual anchor windlass, do I need it for this size boat? I know a lady who has no manual or electric windlass on her 26 footer (a Raven) but does have a chain pawl, and does use all chain, and is a lot older and 'creakier" than me, but manages.

 

What about chain and rope combinations. I have ruled out 'all chain' due to weight, so was going to go with 25 metres chain and 50 metres of rope.

For the rope I was going to go for 12mm, but what about chain? 6, 7 or 8mm?

 

The roller on there is probably inadequate size, so I was going to fit a larger one to port.

 

I also need to organise a chain pipe and get that installed on deck.

 

This is, by the way, for anchoring around NZ. If I ever sailed in areas of coral I guess I'd have to think seriously about all chain, despite the weight.

 

Most of you guys on here probably have big boat, and to me anything above 26 feet is "big", but I welcome your views and ideas as I race to get my boat launched before Xmas.

 

Cheers.

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until the pros weigh in something to think of

 

from someone, on another forum, on the same subject

 

Here (in NZ) the general absolute minimum of chain is 1.5 to 2 times the boat length backed by rope. Most carry 3 time boat length, some a tad more.

An average 40fter here is on 8 or 9mm

50fter 10mm

30 and below 6 or 7mm with a few on 8mm.

Boats dragging does happen but it is not that much of a major thing really. Unless in the Sounds or the Gulf most boating would be regarded as coastal to semi-exposed with a nice bit of open water (next stop is Chile). We do have a few boats here, 1.6 per household if I remember right.

Anyone anchoring on anything at less than 3:1 all chain scope is known as a Nut-job. Rope to chain 5:1 minimum, all chain 3:1 in nice weather, more as it goes bad.

 

so for the chain on your boat let's say, 20m of 7mm

 

for the nylon, as an example, my over-spec'd 25' 3100kg pocket world cruiser came with 50m of 16mm and a manual windlass, so you could probably go a little smaller safely with adequate reserve

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With a 25lbs Manson supreme (too big for your boat) you could get away with 12 meters of 7mm short link chain and 50m of 12mm rope.

 

You won't need an anchor winch at all as pulling it up buy hand will be pretty easy

 

Good luck with your boat :thumbup:

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With a 25lbs Manson supreme (too big for your boat) you could get away with 12 meters of 7mm short link chain and 50m of 12mm rope.

 

You won't need an anchor winch at all as pulling it up buy hand will be pretty easy

 

Good luck with your boat :thumbup:

 

Hey thanks mate. Music to my ears. That is what I wanted, an anchor one size too big.

And I reckon you could be right about not needing the Manual Windlass. I have bought quite a bit of gear for my boat that I did not need - exuberance of newness to owning a sailboat I guess--you live and learn.

If anyone knows or wants a Royal Lofrans Manual windlass I'd consider selling it if the price is right.

I've been reading about these chain pawls or chain stopper things. Seems a good idea in lieu of a windlass for a wee boat like mine.

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Pretty much what Royal said. Clever dude for a Beale owner ;)

 

-25lb Supreme is on the large side but that does allow you to carry less chain. The US tend to run a programme of huge anchors with the smallest hi tensile chain back to the boat. The rest of the world doesn't and tends to run a more balanced system where all the components work in harmony.

- A 7mm is a good idea or if you are going to the Islands maybe go all 6mm - But make sure it's a good one see the numbers below. 100mts of 6mm is 80kg, 105 if it's 7mm.

- If you do go to the Islands you can get armored anchor rope. That may allow you lots of length with less coral worry and all at a lot less weight. The armored rope does cost a bit though but it will also handle over 600 degrees so if you want to anchor a Concorde it'll be handy for that as well.

- Don't need a winch. I carry 15mts of 7mm to 12mm rope to a cough cough Kg anchor on my boat and the Wa pulls it up easy peasy. Even using a heavier anchor it's easy. Pulling up all 6mm wouldn't be that nasty considering that 80kg only weighs 69 when it's in the sea.

- A LOT of boats don't have anchor winches, inc a 42ft launch I hooked up with some gear yesterday. I did find that surprising as most that size have a capstan (rope drum) at least, this had not a thing.

- That manual windlass is worth good coin, don't just chuck it. There are many actively hunting for manual windlasses. If you want to get rid of it PM me.

- I'd say your 25mt to 50mt idea is a good one. If you hang onto the 25lber you'll be able to get totaly sh*t faced and pass out safely knowing you'll still awake up where you started, your anchoring technique willing ;)

 

Strength wise on boat your size isn't a massive worry as smaller boats tend to be over anchored but if venturing far afield here's a small example of why some care needs to still be taken. A couple of numbers for you.

 

The range of 7mm short link chains in NZ have a working load of between 350kg to the good ones at over 770kg. They all look pretty much the same and many will tell you they are, they aren't.

 

A average 23fter would see a bit over 380kg of load in 40kts so you could hit the working load of a low grade chain quite easily. Chuck in a wave or 2 and a low grade chain would be changing shape in 40 plus knots. Not a biggie for you as I doubt it'll break and you don't have a winch to fit the chain to but changing shape is still a little spooky as you have push it's boundary too far. Hit 60kts and the load will grow to over 750kg, that's when you'll question what you brought.

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PM sent KM, re my manual windlass.

Thanks for your post too, really helpful thanks.

 

Have you got a link for this "Armored Rope"? Sounds interesting, but a google search doesn't turn up much at all.

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we have cav26,just got rid of the 100m all chain,and we dragged,2 boat lengths chain and 50m 16mm rope now and it does not drag in a blow(i like to hear the warp working)if it is stuck i bring warp back to cockpit winch or motor over it till breaks out.

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The best trick for lifting an anchor after it has been really well dug in is to pull it up as much as you can and then go make a cup of tea.

 

The movement of the boat will slowly pull the anchor out even on the calmest of days :thumbup:

 

You should never have to winch an anchor out of the ground

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we have cav26,just got rid of the 100m all chain,and we dragged,2 boat lengths chain and 50m 16mm rope now and it does not drag in a blow(i like to hear the warp working)if it is stuck i bring warp back to cockpit winch or motor over it till breaks out.
That seems very weird. What else did you change?
Although 12 mm rope may be plenty strong enough just check that it is easy for you to pull up' date=' a larger diameter is a lot easier to use as well as having more residual strength after any wear.[/quote']True but most find 12mm fine. 10 or smaller is a arse though. It can be good for handling to go up but the size increase dose mean your locker gets exponentially bigger. 50mts of 14mm is a lot bigger pile than 50 of 12mm.
You should never have to winch an anchor out of the ground
Hell yeah!!. Anchor winches are only designed to lift the gear from the sea bed to the boat, not out of the sea bed or the boat to the anchor. Doing that will kill it before its time.
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or the boat to the anchor. Doing that will kill it before its time.
Seen that so many times. I sometimes wonder if people think the anchor winch is like a 4WD winch and they can winch the boat to the Anchor. But the two are completely different inside and the Anchor Winch will soon fail if used under heavy loading. The difference is that the Anchor winch has a scollop cut Bronze gear that is driven by a worm gear on the motor shaft. The Bronze gear is very soft and does not like high loading. It simply wears away turning your Winch oil the most lovely Bronzy metalic sheen. Would be an awesome colour is it was a Car Paint.

A 4WD winch is usually a Planetary Gear set, with straight cut teeth made from hardened steels.

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we have cav26,just got rid of the 100m all chain,and we dragged,2 boat lengths chain and 50m 16mm rope now and it does not drag in a blow(i like to hear the warp working)if it is stuck i bring warp back to cockpit winch or motor over it till breaks out.
That seems very weird. What else did you change?
Although 12 mm rope may be plenty strong enough just check that it is easy for you to pull up' date=' a larger diameter is a lot easier to use as well as having more residual strength after any wear.[/quote']True but most find 12mm fine. 10 or smaller is a arse though. It can be good for handling to go up but the size increase dose mean your locker gets exponentially bigger. 50mts of 14mm is a lot bigger pile than 50 of 12mm.
You should never have to winch an anchor out of the ground
Hell yeah!!. Anchor winches are only designed to lift the gear from the sea bed to the boat, not out of the sea bed or the boat to the anchor. Doing that will kill it before its time.
I have thought about why all chain would drag compared to chain/rope.Now i think i have the answer,when using all chain it should be marked at 5m intervals as mine is not,so I guess now when lowered i only guessed to as to how much chain i had let out.In a chain/rope combination I know i have 2 boat lenghts chain so when it hits bottom i can then measure out amount of warp.I.e 10m water chain stops running let out 10m warp then a further 5m for safety factor so from anchor to boat there is 30m out.
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Yep and modern anchors are designed to cope with a straight line from the anchor to the boat with 5-1 ratio or more

 

The older anchor systems that rely on all chain need some chain on the ground to work.

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I have thought about why all chain would drag compared to chain/rope.Now i think i have the answer,when using all chain it should be marked at 5m intervals as mine is not,so I guess now when lowered i only guessed to as to how much chain i had let out.In a chain/rope combination I know i have 2 boat lenghts chain so when it hits bottom i can then measure out amount of warp.I.e 10m water chain stops running let out 10m warp then a further 5m for safety factor so from anchor to boat there is 30m out.
I suspected as much, good on you for recognising that. It is a common issue we see a lot and usually the convo starts with 'My anchor is crap'. A minute or so later we find the anchor is fine, not so the users technique. You can buy colour rope paints, we use that a lot to make marked rodes. Or a simple permanent felt pen will mark the ropes fine but I'd suggest marking the rope let it dry them wash it before you put it near nice paint work. That'll make sure the pen is set and won't run. My anchor rope is marked so I know within a couple of meters exactly how much I've got out. It is well worth knowing what you have out as most over estimate what they have deployed, often by a LOT and that's not a good situation to be in sometimes.

 

Yep and modern anchors are designed to cope with a straight line from the anchor to the boat with 5-1 ratio or more

The older anchor systems that rely on all chain need some chain on the ground to work.

Not really. The latest and greatest hold higher loads, which most will never use anyway, but the best thing is they are far far better at setting, more idiot proof we call them, otherwise they don't work or have geometry that appreciably different than the old school ones. 5:1 PAH if on rope chain combo or 3:1 PAH on all chain is the old school scope target for nice to OK weather, more if the weather goes bad, go 10:1 if the weathers totally sh*t..... and you have the swing room to do so. That hasn't changed.

 

PAH = Plus a handfull. That's to allow from the cleat/winch to the water, which on some boats can make a significant difference in shallower waters.

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I saw some shockers over the weekend. Some launches only putting out 12m of chain in 5m of water. Crazy. The wind direction changed in the morning and a few of them bumped into each other. Some people have no idea :crazy:

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Great the way you learn in the field though. Once on Great Barrier I pulled into a bay and chucked the kedge over the stern to have lunch. After lunch and a snooze decided to go ashore. After following a walking track around the bay suddenly saw the craft drifting out of the bay. Thats when Ii discovered that trying to row a not fully inflated inflatable faster doesnt work. Anyway lesson learnt once and for all, how you anchor for lunch is not how you anchor to go ashore.

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We were at the far east end of Waiheke, anchored for the evening, when we got a call from a friend that he had just made it to the West end, in some little long narrow bay I can't remember the name of right now. So we decided what the heck, well wander on down to him, as he couldn't as easily come up to us. We got to the Bay and rounded the point to see a Bay full of Boats. I mean absolutely full. I called him and he told me he was right up at the beach end. but there was a space right beside him I could sneak up to. Mate!!! this thing is 46ft and 22tonne, it doesn't do the sneaking thing well.

Everyone was so close to one another, there was not one single little pathway between boats I felt comfortable to go between. I ended up motoring all the way back to where we came from and then found that bay full as well. We still had room enough to anchor, so we were OK. But anyway, the main point is that I was shocked at how close everyone was anchored. It must have been an utter mess of Anchor line's and chain lying along the bottom and I was thinking, I sure hope the wind doesn't change in the night, because no one was going to have any swing room. In fact even just going dead calm, which it did, must have made things rather cuddly for everyone. For some reason, not a lot of folk like cuddling up to my boat though.

Another time, was entering Anchorage bay inside Torrent Bay in Able Tas for the very first time. I meandered up into a gap and dropped anchor and let out plenty of chain and we were beside this beautiful old wooden yacht that was just immaculate. I felt comfortable with the room and settled back thinking I can't wait to meet the owner of that beauty and talk Boats, when this American dude poked his head up from Below and said in a rather obnoxious condescending American drawl type accented tone, "Your going to swing into that Boat and your Going to swing into my Boat, (and then in a slightly louder voice) Find a Bigger Hole!!!". Never did bother to meet the guy. I was pretty sure we were OK, but I still up anchored and moved out further. Three days later, we had a major Southerly Blow come howling through suddenly. Every single Boat in the Bay dragged, including His and we stayed perfectly anchored.

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