Addem 120 Posted May 22, 2023 Share Posted May 22, 2023 Is anyone else going? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Adrianp 124 Posted May 25, 2023 Share Posted May 25, 2023 I'm attending as the incoming Commodore of the NZ Multihull Yacht Club. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
eruptn 103 Posted May 25, 2023 Share Posted May 25, 2023 OurCommodore is going Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Addem 120 Posted May 29, 2023 Author Share Posted May 29, 2023 Brief report is that it was worth going, at least from my club's perspective (Mt Maunganui). Wasn't anything dramatic presented. A little of stuff from Maritime NZ on when their rules apply - as we all know registration and safety compliance under their Act doesn't affect pleasure boats, but if you charter (rent) your boat or tender to your club to use in an event it becomes a commercial vessel and subject to their scrutiny, so don't. Mark Orams was interesting - he's a great speaker, but the best of the day was the lady from Lion Foundation Gaming Trust - a total livewire and keen to give clubs money where they can. I think the more important thing that came out was the amount of advocacy that YNZ do for boaties, things we don't really give them credit for but costs a lot in legal costs. They had a legal barrister that works with YNZ on things that various councils are trying to do around the country and his comment was similar to what we have heard a lot -in dealing with councils the prevailing view is that yachties/boaties are rich, privileged, don't care and cause most of the water quality issues. He said that we should all be raising objections to plans from regional councils that affect us water users and not rely solely on organisations like YNZ. I agree - we are going to be progressively marginlised if our voice is not heard. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Island Time 1,284 Posted May 29, 2023 Share Posted May 29, 2023 I was not there, but feedback from a couple of people who were says they were pleased with YNZ's part, but the Maritime NZ representation was very poor, and some contradictory. Our Club (Gulf Harbour) is trying to organize an Adults learn to sail course. The Current rules are such that as soon as you charge for a course, and have an engine on the boat/boats being used, MNZ require the vessel to be in survey, and the skipper to be certified and current. This is a huge expense for a club, and basically means that clubs cannot legally be running learn to sail courses on vessels with an engine. Yes, I'm aware that some clubs are doing this, but it is not strictly legal. MNZ were not able to answer this question. There seems little point in being a YNZ certified keelboat instructor when you cannot legally use this - its not a commercial qual. With my dealing with MNZ, I'm not surprised! How about this from MNZ at the weekends meeting; Example: "funding" and therefore resources was cited as the reason for not policing the waterways and therefore proactively enacting a Preventative Harm operating policy. How would you feel if some a launch drove into you (your yacht) and a lack of funding was cited as the reason for not being able to have or implement Regulation ? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
CarpeDiem 510 Posted May 29, 2023 Share Posted May 29, 2023 9 minutes ago, Island Time said: I was not there, but feedback from a couple of people who were says they were pleased with YNZ's part, but the Maritime NZ representation was very poor, and some contradictory. Our Club (Gulf Harbour) is trying to organize an Adults learn to sail course. The Current rules are such that as soon as you charge for a course, and have an engine on the boat/boats being used, MNZ require the vessel to be in survey, and the skipper to be certified and current. This is a huge expense for a club, and basically means that clubs cannot legally be running learn to sail courses on vessels with an engine. Yes, I'm aware that some clubs are doing this, but it is not strictly legal. MNZ were not able to answer this question. There seems little point in being a YNZ certified keelboat instructor when you cannot legally use this - its not a commercial qual. With my dealing with MNZ, I'm not surprised! How about this from MNZ at the weekends meeting; Example: "funding" and therefore resources was cited as the reason for not policing the waterways and therefore proactively enacting a Preventative Harm operating policy. How would you feel if some a launch drove into you (your yacht) and a lack of funding was cited as the reason for not being able to have or implement Regulation ? The MRXs at Squadron were discussed once. The conclusion provided was because they are a club they don't need to have the MRXs in survey. I felt the position didn't align with common knowledge but I conceded that knowledge comes from MaritimeNZ themselves whom are not the law. The reality is that no one has actually tested the law in court, MaritimeNZ actually need to bring a case against a club that is doing this. And to date they have not. If you ask MaritimeNZ for their opinion then that's what you'll get. It's not a legal position, it's their interpretation, for that you need council. Unfortunately the way MaritimeNZ operate it will take a fatality or a very serious incident before we find out what the law is. And then club officers, who are essentially volunteers, will find themselves personally in the firing line of a very expensive court case and coronial inquest. Unfortunately I have personally experienced this from my days as a club alpine instructor. And I have seen special prosecutions, attempting to simply define the law, completely destroy a families wealth with no financial recourse when exonerated. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Island Time 1,284 Posted May 29, 2023 Share Posted May 29, 2023 12 minutes ago, CarpeDiem said: The MRXs at Squadron were discussed once. The conclusion provided was because they are a club they don't need to have the MRXs in survey. I felt the position didn't align with common knowledge but I conceded that knowledge comes from MaritimeNZ themselves whom are not the law. The reality is that no one has actually tested the law in court, MaritimeNZ actually need to bring a case against a club that is doing this. And to date they have not. If you ask MaritimeNZ for their opinion then that's what you'll get. It's not a legal position, it's their interpretation, for that you need council. Unfortunately the way MaritimeNZ operate it will take a fatality or a very serious incident before we find out what the law is. And then club officers, who are essentially volunteers, will find themselves personally in the firing line of a very expensive court case and coronial inquest. Unfortunately I have personally experienced this from my days as a club alpine instructor. And I have seen special prosecutions, attempting to simply define the law, completely destroy a families wealth with no financial recourse when exonerated. Actually the law is quite clear for a vessel with an engine. It also says that the MNZ director can issue an exemption. To date they have not. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Addem 120 Posted May 29, 2023 Author Share Posted May 29, 2023 To be fair the MNZ guys didn't say they weren't funded properly but said two things: - They don't do patrols - that is responsibility of Regional councils and Harbour masters which are then ones struggling for money (whangamata has lost its Harbour master for this reason). - Just like police can't patrol every road all the time no agency can patrol every waterway all the time. But they did say that their budget was focused on education and compliance and not enforcement. I can also see how they would view that a learn to sail would fall foul of their rules as they emphasized that the Act applies when there is a payment of any sort for the use of a boat. We all know that this was intended to catch the charter boat world and not learn to sail etc but the law is an ass and they are employed to ride their particular animal. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Addem 120 Posted May 29, 2023 Author Share Posted May 29, 2023 12 minutes ago, Island Time said: Actually the law is quite clear for a vessel with an engine. It also says that the MNZ director can issue an exemption. To date they have not. They explained this too albeit generically using The rental of a boat for a single race scenario. They said they could issue a Moss exemption when a club applies and meets the safety plan rules in the same way as they get them for patrol craft. But who would do that for your small learn to sail programme Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Addem 120 Posted May 29, 2023 Author Share Posted May 29, 2023 BTW I am not defending them merely aiming for balanced reporting. I have a lot i could complain about the MNZ system. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
CarpeDiem 510 Posted May 29, 2023 Share Posted May 29, 2023 It thasn't been tested in court with a not for profit club There's a lot of grey area. Funds go to the club which can then be disbursed as running/operating costs to the boat and boat owner. Does the boat owner make a profit, can it be shown to be running costs? By extension are contributions from crew to a owner of a race boat subject to the same rules? What about when you go out with a mate on your launch and he pays for the petrol/diesel? Or the crew get together and decide to buy you a new headsail because they flogged your old one? Are the (literally) cans and cans of beer I still have not managed to get through from the summer crew a form of payment? Are you paying for the boat or are you paying for the experience that the club provide? It's not clear cut at all. And MaritimeNZ know this which is why the information appears to be so contradicting. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
CarpeDiem 510 Posted May 29, 2023 Share Posted May 29, 2023 26 minutes ago, Island Time said: It also says that the MNZ director can issue an exemption. To date they have not. I thought patrol craft had exemptions? Like the start boat, which is clearly funded by paying race entries, and the boat they use to tow the Elliott's around, which is clearly paid for by the learn-to-sail fee. You're saying no exemptions have ever been granted? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Island Time 1,284 Posted May 29, 2023 Share Posted May 29, 2023 No, not saying that. Patrol craft for clubs do have that exemption. Exemptions have been issued in the past, and some are still current (like the yacht club patrol boats) Also they are not interested in small sailing craft. But as soon as it has a motor, it has to comply, as does it's crew. It would be pretty easy for the Director or MNZ to exempt yacht club training vessels, which would have to comply with YNZ rules... Quote Link to post Share on other sites
mischief 5 Posted May 29, 2023 Share Posted May 29, 2023 you can apply for MOSS exemptions in this case - https://www.yachtingnz.org.nz/clubs/moss-exemption not an expert by any mean but our club as been through this. a few hoops to jump through but all possible Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Island Time 1,284 Posted May 29, 2023 Share Posted May 29, 2023 Just now, mischief said: you can apply for MOSS exemptions in this case - https://www.yachtingnz.org.nz/clubs/moss-exemption not an expert by any mean but our club as been through this. a few hoops to jump through but all possible Interesting. Our requests have been rejected. Which club is this? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
CarpeDiem 510 Posted May 29, 2023 Share Posted May 29, 2023 That's a bit different from what we are discussing here, isn't it? That's paying someone to operate a boat which they or the club, or someone else owns. Presumably the operator is making a profit? If your skippers are volunteers, they are club members and they are receiving a "nominal wear and tear gear allowance" eg, $25/day and a beer and a meal afterwards at the bar, then that would need to be tested in court to determine if that was payment for service, in my non maritime club experience in relation to, Worksafe, DOC Concessions and the Adventure Tourisim Regulations, the courts have stated that a payment like the above is not payment for service. But MaritimeNZ have never tested their laws in court. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Island Time 1,284 Posted May 29, 2023 Share Posted May 29, 2023 Currently, MNZ's opinion is that ANY $ changing hands is then commercial, profit or not. We don't wish to test it in court. Plus, using a member's boat for a learn to sail course most likely invalidates their insurance. The idea, in our case, is not profit making, but for the club and the promotion of safe sailing ... It will be discussed further between MNZ and YNZ... and our club. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
harrytom 679 Posted May 29, 2023 Share Posted May 29, 2023 9 minutes ago, Island Time said: Currently, MNZ's opinion is that ANY $ changing hands is then commercial, profit or not. We don't wish to test it in court. Plus, using a member's boat for a learn to sail course most likely invalidates their insurance. The idea, in our case, is not profit making, but for the club and the promotion of safe sailing ... It will be discussed further between MNZ and YNZ... and our club. Be all good until theres a mishap. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Island Time 1,284 Posted May 29, 2023 Share Posted May 29, 2023 25 minutes ago, harrytom said: Be all good until there's a mishap. That's the issue. Its a pretty big risk for anyone offering their boat, being a skipper, or any club. There is a mechanism to do this (and official approved exemption) but it seems not easy to organize. It's actually in everyone's favor to encourage training and education, but IMO this is quite a stumbling block. Does look like the only real way to do it is for a club to buy a suitable boat/s, and have an exemption... 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
CarpeDiem 510 Posted May 29, 2023 Share Posted May 29, 2023 13 minutes ago, Island Time said: Currently, MNZ's opinion is that ANY $ changing hands is then commercial, profit or not. We don't wish to test it in court. Plus, using a member's boat for a learn to sail course most likely invalidates their insurance. The idea, in our case, is not profit making, but for the club and the promotion of safe sailing ... It will be discussed further between MNZ and YNZ... and our club. A few years ago mnz ran a campaign which contradicts that. They might have changed their position, but the campaign went something like "if a friend gives you money for boat petrol then that's OK, if he gives you money to borrow the boat then that isn't". As you said it is MNZs opinion, on the law. Until the law is tested in court and case law is established the definition of what the law means isn't defined. Your club can't test it in court, only MaritimeNZ can test it in court and only by bringing a prosecution against the club officers - that's the risk. Consider also the complexity that would exist with trusts that own boats. No one, would ever be able to give any money to the trust for the boat, every boat in NZ held in a family trust would need to be in survey. Definitely interesting to hear how you get on with this. When my friend and I looked into it for a club 3 years ago we couldn't get it through because MNZ would not budge on their opinion. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
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