Registration Offshore such as the Cook Islands

[marinheiro 352]

7 hours ago, southernman said:

Singlehanded is possible with insurance.  Just notify them I've had not issues. 

which Insurer is that? When I raised it with Baileys/Vero they said no way on Inter - island passages. Min 3 crew all international passages.

Even getting coverage for 2 crew is getting tough, can't with Vero, can with Pantaneius at an extortionate price, don't know about Topsail, Haven KJ and Williams.

[Black Panther 1,587]

Back to the original topic. Does YNZ have any concern that a significant percentage of nz boats heading offshore are looking to foreign registration to avoid cat 1? And if they do would their approach be punitive or would they try to approach these people to find out what is wrong with the current scheme. And maybe fix it?

[LBD 128]

On 28/07/2023 at 12:49 AM, Black Panther said:

 And if they do would their approach be punitive or would they try to approach these people to find out what is wrong with the current scheme. And maybe fix it?

Of course not... to them it is just a job, do what needs to be done, collect a wage and go home. It is only if some twaat comes along who wants to justify his existence by "identifying" an opportunity to expand his officious kingdom that you might get some action. In this country enforcing "compliance" is seen as an easy money cash cow by those too lazy to be productive in any real way.  

With a few exceptions, compliance and permitting has got out of control and is now little more than a form of tax on productivity and freedom under the guise of "we need to enforce this for the wellbeing of society."

And that folks, is my rant for July.

[marinheiro 352]

On 27/07/2023 at 11:49 PM, Black Panther said:

Back to the original topic. Does YNZ have any concern that a significant percentage of nz boats heading offshore are looking to foreign registration to avoid cat 1? And if they do would their approach be punitive or would they try to approach these people to find out what is wrong with the current scheme. And maybe fix it?

not sure what in your mind constitutes a significant %. Every now and then someone asks the question here about offshore registration but the number who go this route in any season can probably be counted on one hand.

The sticking issue I have heard is the not very clear updated requirement for fixing covering boards on large windows. That has been the only substantive change in the rules in the last 6 yrs. From what I have heard inspectors have in practice taken a very flexible approach to this.

8 hours ago, LBD said:

Of course not... to them it is just a job, do what needs to be done, collect a wage and go home. It is only if some twaat comes along who wants to justify his existence by "identifying" an opportunity to expand his officious kingdom that you might get some action. In this country enforcing "compliance" is seen as an easy money cash cow by those too lazy to be productive in any real way.  

With a few exceptions, compliance and permitting has got out of control and is now little more than a form of tax on productivity and freedom under the guise of "we need to enforce this for the wellbeing of society."

And that folks, is my rant for July.

not sure if you know how the Cat 1 system works, the inspectors are all volunteers and charge very little for their time, the late esteemed Fossil for example did not charge at all, just the cost of the certificate.

for sure agree with you on this in general, 

With a few exceptions, compliance and permitting has got out of control and is now little more than a form of tax on productivity and freedom under the guise of "we need to enforce this for the wellbeing of society." 

[Black Panther 1,587]

1 hour ago, marinheiro said:

not sure what in your mind constitutes a significant %. Every now and then someone asks the question here about offshore registration but the number who go this route in any season can probably be counted on one hand.

I'm aware of al least 20, i get contracted  fairly frequently by people looking for an alternative, and a couple I was unaware of just popped up on this thread.

But no wY of knowing short of an OIA request ( that's what I had to do a few years back when i looked for stats on rescues).

Quote

The sticking issue I have heard is the not very clear updated requirement for fixing covering boards on large windows. That has been the only substantive change in the rules in the last 6 yrs. From what I have heard inspectors have in practice taken a very flexible approach to this.

I disagree.  Nearly everyone i speak to simply wants autonomy over their own vessel,  although one recently simply didn't think they had time to get through it all before departure. 

Quote

not sure if you know how the Cat 1 system works, the inspectors are all volunteers and charge very little for their time, the late esteemed Fossil for example did not charge at all, just the cost of the certificate.

The first time I did it Fossil did the inspection, that about 44 years ago.  Last time I did it about 3years ago as part of a delivery. Lost track of my total mileage but somewhere north of 100,000 miles.

 

[LBD 128]

For sure there are good guys out there and is no means a dig at volunteers. By all means Fossil sounds like a good bloke and the Nelson guy sounds pretty decent as well..

But as I understand and maybe wrong,  Cat 1 is an MNZ enforced requirement... that is more where the dig was aimed... and at general bureaucracy.

I daily wade through such waters in the mining industry and just needed a  vent last night... 

[Black Panther 1,587]

Hope you feel better now.

[LBD 128]

18 minutes ago, Black Panther said:

Hope you feel better now.

It helped... along some deep breathing and a sanity moment.... 

 

 

[southernman 73]

On 27/07/2023 at 3:13 PM, marinheiro said:

which Insurer is that? When I raised it with Baileys/Vero they said no way on Inter - island passages. Min 3 crew all international passages.

Even getting coverage for 2 crew is getting tough, can't with Vero, can with Pantaneius at an extortionate price, don't know about Topsail, Haven KJ and Williams.

Was pretty simple for us.  We simply emailed our insurance broker and said we are moving the boat with a crew of one from Fiji to NZ and more recently from France to the US with two, no problem at all but the excess was more I remember.  The cost is higher but hey that's insurance. Self insurance is something I can't afford for high value boats. 

[Jon 360]

I’ve been asking kiwi owners on foreign flagged boats that are currently in Fiji why they did it this way with the idea to take this back to YNZ. I sit on both sides of fence (boat owner and YNZ inspector)

I’m getting they all seem to use the YNZ template as per what gear they take but ASS course costs and 5 year renewal, MARINE medic course, out of water inspection 

‘But if you want insurance then your paying one way or the other, cost of insurance is less if you do it properly just to start with.

[Black Panther 1,587]

13 minutes ago, Jon said:

But if you want insurance then your paying one way or the other, cost of insurance is less if you do it properly just to start with.

I'm sorry got lost there. Who is speaking ? I don't get what is being said after the comma.

[Jon 360]

1 hour ago, Black Panther said:

I'm sorry got lost there. Who is speaking ? I don't get what is being said after the comma.

Insurance companies factor their rates accordingly and accept Cat 1 inspection rather than needing to get a marine survey 

[Jon 360]

14 hours ago, Guest said:

I’m getting they all seem to use the YNZ template as per what gear they take but ASS course costs and 5 year renewal,MARINE medic course, out of water inspection 

I take it “but” means except for?

 

 

These are the reasons they are giving me for not registering in NZ and finding an alternative 

[marinheiro 352]

21 hours ago, Jon said:

I’ve been asking kiwi owners on foreign flagged boats that are currently in Fiji why they did it this way with the idea to take this back to YNZ. I sit on both sides of fence (boat owner and YNZ inspector)

I’m getting they all seem to use the YNZ template as per what gear they take but ASS course costs and 5 year renewal, MARINE medic course, out of water inspection 

‘But if you want insurance then your paying one way or the other, cost of insurance is less if you do it properly just to start with.

Maybe YNZ should be doing something unusual and actually consulting on an inclusive basis, not just going thru the motions, with current/would be offshore voyagers. Something for Angus' replacement to do when they manage to recruit someone.

Interesting that your ad hoc survey seems to be people bitching about relatively minor cost items in the greater scheme of things, were these "budget" cruisers or more affluent? My issue with the courses is there availability, the fact that providers cannot keep up with current demand.  Also there should be recognition of "like qualifications, eg if someone is current with SCTW 95 then that should be acceptable for at least ASS requirements. I find it remarkable that people do not see some benefit from doing these courses, given that it is statistically inevitable there will be incidents, eg last month the child drowning in Musket Cove and the cat that parked on a reef in Lau group with the crew having to abandon ship. They might want to ponder on the fact that some of the items in the Cat 1 first aid kit could literally be the difference between life and death, and that non medical people need to have some idea of how to use that stuff.

Re Out of Water inspection, I have always planned for a haulout not long before departure so I am voyaging with new antifoul and cover the inspection at the same time.

The biggest complaint I have heard is the lack of clarity over the change to the storm shutters requirement and I am of the view this has not been well handled since its introduction with alot of contradictory advice being provided from YNZ and the inspectors not being sure themselves on how this is to be applied.

[Black Panther 1,587]

2 hours ago, marinheiro said:

last month the child drowning in Musket Cove and the cat that parked on a reef in Lau group with the crew having to abandon ship.

If these were NZ vessels presumably they had cat 1 and it did them no good.

[aardvarkash10 960]

26 minutes ago, Black Panther said:

If these were NZ vessels presumably they had cat 1 and it did them no good.

Survivorship bias

 

[Black Panther 1,587]

3 hours ago, marinheiro said:

Interesting that your ad hoc survey seems to be people bitching about relatively minor cost items in the greater scheme of things, were these "budget" cruisers or more affluent

What's your point here? Only those with unlimited funds should be allowed to sail offshore?

[marinheiro 352]

34 minutes ago, Black Panther said:

If these were NZ vessels presumably they had cat 1 and it did them no good.

the cat that sank was an Australian boat rescued in the middle of the night by a NZ boat that was part of the ICNZ rally in what were described as "in a very brave and tricky situation". No doubt the NZ boats ASS and First aid training would have been of assistance

8 minutes ago, Black Panther said:

What's your point here? Only those with unlimited funds should be allowed to sail offshore?

and your point continues to be the rules should be specially changed just to suit you.

I asked Jon a reasonable question and await with interest to see his response.

[Black Panther 1,587]

9 hours ago, marinheiro said:

9 hours ago, Black Panther said:

 

and your point continues to be the rules should be specially changed just to suit you.

I'm comfortable with the status quo. I don't like the rules but there is a loophole that allows me to circumvent them. 

But i suggest this conversation will go better if it doesn't get personal. 

[marinheiro 352]

12 hours ago, Black Panther said:

But i suggest this conversation will go better if it doesn't get personal. 

Could not agree more, so you can lead by example and not attempt to draw conclusions on what posters are thinking when they ask a question...