markm 30 Posted September 19, 2011 Share Posted September 19, 2011 At the risk of demonstrating myself as a member in good standing of the Flintstone generation, would open up the following for discussion. Firstly, should preface this by saying there's no intent to knock multihulls, exactly the same comments apply no matter the boat. When I decide to knock multihulls, they'll be no ambiguity and of course the comments will be much longer because they'll be so much more for me to say. As most will be aware, there's a much vaunted trickle down affect from the Americas Cup and other high profile sailing. Now for the record, my view is that one of the two or three major inovations this time, the wing isn't really going to trickle into mainstream sailing any time soon, just logistically too difficult. The second, the technology, particularly as applied to race management, can definitely see that trickling in a trickle but again, can't really see it quite making it to club level very soon. Likewise, whilst it may apply a bit of intelectual stimulation to cruisers (definitely a needed thing), you have to say it's application to cruising again is somewhat limited. The third major difference I think, which is the somewhat belated point, is racing style and atitude. It would seem that the 'vision' is to transform sailing from what can admittedly sometimes be somewhat pedestrian formats of race course into the 'stadium' racing started by the Extreme sailing series and which the AC gives every impression of wanting to build on. Now, whilst I'd admit to a certain partiality to seeing the odd bit of carnage break loose on a jybe or a kite drop every now and then and whilst I'm always happy to have my vocabulary broadened with the repartee tha'ts been known to flow in a luffing duel, it seems we've moved on from that to the point that if at least one boat doesn't crash, flip or sink, it was a dull race. Worse, yes we are getting to the point slowly, can you imagine what club racing is going to be like when people with 1% of the AC skills come into the sport thinking that all this is the norm. This is I think the trickle down which we are going to see and it's a trickle down that I personally think we could do without. To use an analogy from cricket, a sport from an era well before the flintstones, it's like a transformation from five day tests to 20/20. So, the discussion point, will an atitude of breaking and crashing boats trickle down and if so, is that an evolution we want? Myself, I think it will and it's not something I want a part of. Partly that's because in my view it will take away some of the subtlety of yacht racing. partly I'm just from an era that says a crash is a screw up not a normal part of racing, and partly of course I'm one of those who will have to pay to fix the mess afterwards. Of course Squid will just tell me to go cruising, he's told me that so often I'll probably quit sailing before I do that just as a point of principle but if we have to turn races into demolition darbies just to appeal to the Facebook' generation and a wider TV audience, my vote is not to. Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Posted September 19, 2011 Share Posted September 19, 2011 My finger was hovering over the keyboard till I got to the last paragraph!!! Link to post Share on other sites
Mothership 6 Posted September 19, 2011 Share Posted September 19, 2011 Thread locked for trolling Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Posted September 19, 2011 Share Posted September 19, 2011 Actually Mark has made a good point, remember the sailing population turns over, for offshore cruisers about every 7 years, don't know for the racing fleet, but newcomers will consider their experience the norm. Link to post Share on other sites
TimW 1 Posted September 19, 2011 Share Posted September 19, 2011 When Coutts crashed into ETNZ in the prestart and then picked up another penalty they completed their two penalties and were still very handily placed at the first mark and went on to win the race. They got stitched up by Dean but ETNZ never really got rewarded for good match racing. I think the AC will look at that incident and will increase the penalties. That will reduce the ac attitude that its ok to crash into people. Link to post Share on other sites
johnMi 2 Posted September 19, 2011 Share Posted September 19, 2011 I believe the analogy of the influence of the AC45 turning club races into demolition darbies is similar to saying Formula 1 racing influences all road drivers into speeding. But then maybe there is a place in NZ sailing for more 'extreme' sailing at the local club level. There has been talk of this and I would be keen to become involved in such a scene, but it would have to involve different insurance covers or have sponsors to cover the costs. I think the way Oracle are driving the cup is both innovative and exciting, and with technology as it is now, yachting could become a sport comparative with the V8 supercar racing. Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Posted September 19, 2011 Share Posted September 19, 2011 I believe the analogy of the influence of the AC45 turning club races into demolition darbies is similar to saying Formula 1 racing influences all road drivers into speeding. And you think testosterone filled teenagers don't try to emulate the racing they see on the box? Link to post Share on other sites
Atom Ant 0 Posted September 20, 2011 Share Posted September 20, 2011 They are already getting surprised that when they prang the real thing it just doesn't start up again a drive off! Link to post Share on other sites
Atom Ant 0 Posted September 20, 2011 Share Posted September 20, 2011 Having said that teenagers have always been a problematic group when it comes to responsibility in almost every area. So I'm inclined to agree with JohnMi, that I don't believe this will introduce a new norm - hey John I hear you already like to play bumper boats - so were you the trend setter and the AC copied you? Link to post Share on other sites
johnMi 2 Posted September 20, 2011 Share Posted September 20, 2011 That must be it, should pat myself on the back for coming up with such a good idea Apparently though the other player seemed to be a bit offended with my advances Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Posted September 20, 2011 Share Posted September 20, 2011 So, the discussion point, will an atitude of breaking and crashing boats trickle down and if so, is that an evolution we want? Myself, I think it will and it's not something I want a part of. Partly that's because in my view it will take away some of the subtlety of yacht racing. partly I'm just from an era that says a crash is a screw up not a normal part of racing, and partly of course I'm one of those who will have to pay to fix the mess afterwards. Of course Squid will just tell me to go cruising, he's told me that so often I'll probably quit sailing before I do that just as a point of principle but if we have to turn races into demolition darbies just to appeal to the Facebook' generation and a wider TV audience, my vote is not to. I agree. Suppose the dodgems culture does trickle down, for argument's sake. I urge everyone... don't walk away. Don't stop racing and go cruising instead... If you do, the trickle will become a torrent and the club racing norm will shift. Push back. The rules of sailing, in particular rules like rules 14, 15 and 16, are written to prevent unneccessary damage to boats. The ethos of yacht clubs on this issue is pretty unanimous and pretty firm. People who have little or no regard for other people's boats should, and do, get run out of town pretty damn quickly. We should ensure that this remains the case. Anyone who has spent time repairing a boat that has been holed in a racing incident will know how hard, expensive and time consuming it is once it goes beyound a scratch and becomes a proper crunch. Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Posted September 20, 2011 Share Posted September 20, 2011 The 45's are more Go-carts than F1. The Go-carts scream around tiny tracks bashing into each other and crashing off the track almost as standard practice. F1 doesn't do it quite that way. Innovative? Nothing new seen there. Hell, NZ had Mullet Boats stadium racing 2 decades ago. Wings aren't new nor is weird asred tracks or management. But the 45's will make all that more mainstream or at least open the eyes of the non-yachters to it, with that I agree. Innovative as they have brought that package together for marketing to the great unwashed masses though. Suppose the dodgems culture does trickle down, for argument's sake. Don't you mean trickle up? The 88's have been playing dodgems long before the 45's were even dreamed up Trickle down? Unlikely as we play with the boats we have to pay for, they play with other peoples boats the crew don't have to pay for, that's quite a significant difference. Link to post Share on other sites
johnMi 2 Posted September 20, 2011 Share Posted September 20, 2011 Anyone who has spent time repairing a boat that has been holed in a racing incident will know how hard, expensive and time consuming it is once it goes beyound a scratch and becomes a proper crunch. If you don't want the possibility of damage, don't race Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Posted September 20, 2011 Share Posted September 20, 2011 Anyone who has spent time repairing a boat that has been holed in a racing incident will know how hard, expensive and time consuming it is once it goes beyound a scratch and becomes a proper crunch. If you don't want the possibility of damage, don't race If you don't want the possibility of damage, don't race John..................... Link to post Share on other sites
johnMi 2 Posted September 20, 2011 Share Posted September 20, 2011 Please yourself Dan Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Posted September 20, 2011 Share Posted September 20, 2011 Anyone who has spent time repairing a boat that has been holed in a racing incident will know how hard, expensive and time consuming it is once it goes beyound a scratch and becomes a proper crunch. If you don't want the possibility of damage, don't race Wtf? Did you read what I wrote? Sorry, ignore that. Did you stop and think about any of what I wrote? Did you understand it? I think it was pretty clear that I was NOT arguing for the elimination of any chance of damage. I think it was pretty clear I was talking about the culture of managing, mitigating and minimising the risk of significant damage, precisely because we all live in a world where the time, cost and inconvenience of significant damage repairs are things (almost) none of us want. I never pleaded a case for not wanting the possibility of damage. Where the hell did you get that from? But since you've pulled the concept out, how do you figure that not racing eliminates the possibility of damage? Can't you get damaged cruising? Can't you get damaged on a mooring, or in a marina? Can't a hailstorm damge your windows and/or topsides? Can't a meteor fall out of the sky and wipe your rig out? If you don't want the possibility of damage, don't race Jeez, what a ridiculous, ill thought out, innacurate, irrelevant comment. Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Posted September 20, 2011 Share Posted September 20, 2011 Dont worry Bardy.......you'll get used to it. Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Posted September 20, 2011 Share Posted September 20, 2011 [innovative? Nothing new seen there. Hell, NZ had Mullet Boats stadium racing 2 decades ago. that was 4 decades aoo grandad..........boatshow greenlane Link to post Share on other sites
johnMi 2 Posted September 20, 2011 Share Posted September 20, 2011 Jeez, what a ridiculous, ill thought out, innacurate, irrelevant comment. Disagree Kiwi Bardy If you want to be competitive racing, that means being in the best spot for starting, others also want to be there, so there will be jostling for that spot. (cruising, this does not happen) When you approach another boat on opposite tack, you pass as close as you possibly can. (Cruising you give maybe 50 metres) When it's blowing 30 knots, you procrastinate over flying the full masthead Kite, or the small one. (Cruising, you stay in the bay) I have been involved in 3 T-bones, 2 have been bad enough that the boats have had to go straight to shore, and yes 1 was my fault. I must spend at least $1000 a yr fixing sails, kites that have been damaged by over-exuberant use during racing. Why are you so touchy? This is a forum, if you don't like my opinion, cos that's all it is, pass it by. I don't mean to upset you and apologise if I did. Dan Same with you. Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Posted September 20, 2011 Share Posted September 20, 2011 If you want to be competitive racing, that means being in the best spot for starting, others also want to be there, so there will be jostling for that spot. (cruising, this does not happen) Haw can you decree that everyone should vote Labour in the upcomming general election? Surely everyone has the right to decide which party they want to vote for? Just because there's no jostling for position when cruising, that doesn't give you to right to force everyone to vote for Labour. Why are you so touchy? This is a forum, if you don't like my opinion, cos that's all it is, pass it by. I don't mean to upset you and apologise if I did. I have no issue with your opinion. You are free to it. I would happily pass your opinion by. You expressing your opinion is not what I object to. I do get upset when you quote something I say, and then add a comment that infers I was arguing for a position or opinion which it was clear I was not arguing for at all. If you want to say "If you don't want the possibility of damage, don't race" then say it. But don't select something I said, which in no way indicates I was wanting no possibility of damage and quote it to introduce your opinion. I am not upset by your opinion. I am upset that you falsely represented mine. Link to post Share on other sites
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