Grinna 2 Posted December 12, 2011 Share Posted December 12, 2011 Ah yes, but you should see the hoops that have to be jumped thru to return sediment that came from the sea back to the sea. Its OK to dredge from the sea floor, but you try returning it to the sea and you're evil incarnate. Bureaucratic silliness in all it's splendour. Link to post Share on other sites
wheels 543 Posted December 12, 2011 Share Posted December 12, 2011 but its ok for the fishermen to throw balls of lead into the sea all day long? Lead is one thing. You want to go diving and see someplaces that have lengths of fishing line strewn all over the place. Also some serious questions have been raised by some aboyut Soft baits. Apparently the plastics used are quite toxic to fish and a Fish can not digest it either. So if you have a fish take part of the bait, chances are, it will die in one way or another. And if that fish is eatin by another, so the cycle goes on. Link to post Share on other sites
johnMi 2 Posted December 12, 2011 Share Posted December 12, 2011 But Grinna, once again, that sediment is unnaturally dumped on top of living organisms on the sea floor, causing suffocation and death; akin to the dust envelopment associated with a volcanic eruption. The trouble is we don't see it, so it's OK Imagine if we did the same thing say in a couple of paddocks in Warkworth, or Dairy Flat..... Link to post Share on other sites
Grinna 2 Posted December 12, 2011 Share Posted December 12, 2011 But the thing is, sediment is dumped on marine organisms all the time ... and your perspective on whether its natural or not depends on whether you think that man's alteration of landforms and influence on the erosion of soils results in unnatural levels of sediment in the marine system or not. Marine organisms are actually pretty hardy beasts by and large. They get stressed by some things and can be pushed to the point where the give up, but by and large they're pretty persistent little buggers. For example, coating the bottom of a boat with toxic, slippery and dissolving coatings would, you would think, deter organisms from establishing themselves on that surface, but not completely ... they still manage to get a foothold and if given an opportunity will proliferate from there. Heck barnacles will establish on the hull of a yacht above the waterline during the few weeks or so it takes to sail across the Pacific Ocean. Many marine beasties regularly (and naturally) cope with widely fluctuating temperatures, exposure to air, risk of dessication, widely fluctuating salinity, widely fluctuating levels of suspended sediments, widely fluctuating levels of dissolved oxygen, etc, etc. Many marine organisms are very hardy beasts becausethey have to be to survive. Particularly in deep water, disposal of sediment is really not a huge deal because the sediment tends to spread out as it settles so it become a thin dusting, rather than a dollop dropped in one spot. Small amounts of sediment can be coped with. I've seen years worth of specific quantitative data that shows in quite specific detail the effects of thin layer disposal of sediment over marine biological communities and its remarkable in the consistency with which it shows no adverse effects. Quite surprising really. Yes, we need to have respect for the sea, yes we need to have a precautionary approach, yes we should reduce our impacts as much as possible, but the marine environment does have quite a degree of robustness and persistence built into it. Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Posted December 12, 2011 Share Posted December 12, 2011 We spend a lot of time in marinas. There is a sh*t load more life in them today than there was 10yo. We see some huge schools of fish and some huge fish, mostly Porore but that's OK as they are vegos so eat the weed. Also swimming in them, bum cleaning, these days and you don't come out with the feeling your are coated in some slime and yuck like you did a decade ago. Whatever is happening is trending the right way very nicely thank you, don't f*ck with it. If anything the biggest pest in marinas is those Pacific Oysters (knot 100% sure of their name warning), the fast growing frilly ones. Razor sharp and spreading like weeds real fast. As mention in my submission to BioSec on all this, if they remove the cheaper easier faster ways for boats to clean their bums, they just won't or they will just do it in places out of site, which may very well end up a shite load worse over time. Sure being 100% clean and green is admirable but I think we can live with some very very small pockets that may only be 90% squeaky clean. When you look marinas are a tiny tiny fraction of the water ways used. Link to post Share on other sites
Battleship 100 Posted December 13, 2011 Author Share Posted December 13, 2011 Well said KM, it's seems like we may just be an easy target as the general public think boat owners are rich, they don't realise how much we all sacrifice to do what we love. What really gets my goat is they target us but don't do much about the ports or the ships and the nasty stuff they use for antifoul not to mention all the sh*t that washes into the Harbour down here every time it rains, and the constant haze of fertilizer blowing in every time there is an easterly, why mess with us? doesn't make sense. Link to post Share on other sites
Murky 1 Posted December 13, 2011 Share Posted December 13, 2011 I'd say they are way out of their depth or do not quite realise the full range of circumstances and how difficult it will be to come up with one-size-fits-all solutions. One thing this thread has made me do is look at some of the literature on their website. In one section of a brochure, there is a comment that if you are pulling mussels off your boat on a hardstand, you should not throw them back in the sea (or they might reproduce ). In another part of the same brochure, "Wiping or soft brushing/scrubbing of light slime coating on hull" is quoted as an acceptable activity on a tidal grid. Clearly most of us on this site would be in the second category and it would be quite exceptional to be in the first. If they are happy for the wiping/brushing side to continue, we wouldn't have a problem. Link to post Share on other sites
wheels 543 Posted December 13, 2011 Share Posted December 13, 2011 I'd say they are way out of their depth or do not quite realise the full range of circumstances and how difficult it will be to come up with one-size-fits-all solutions. Yes, but I hope you are not suggesting a bureacratic Office is going to see reason of think logically are you I reckon they have it all backwards though. The best idea would be for the Environmental councils or local councils or Gvt to provide free lift and cleans and anti-fouls for all boats so as they don't allow growth of anything and thus stop the spread of the nasty pests. Whaddaya all reckon??? So when Squid stands for election, he could have that as one of his policies. Imagine the votes he would get. Link to post Share on other sites
smithy09 50 Posted December 13, 2011 Share Posted December 13, 2011 But the thing is, sediment is dumped on marine organisms all the time ... and your perspective on whether its natural or not depends on whether you think that man's alteration of landforms and influence on the erosion of soils results in unnatural levels of sediment in the marine system or not. Marine organisms are actually pretty hardy beasts by and large. They get stressed by some things and can be pushed to the point where the give up, but by and large they're pretty persistent little buggers. For example, coating the bottom of a boat with toxic, slippery and dissolving coatings would, you would think, deter organisms from establishing themselves on that surface, but not completely ... they still manage to get a foothold and if given an opportunity will proliferate from there. Heck barnacles will establish on the hull of a yacht above the waterline during the few weeks or so it takes to sail across the Pacific Ocean. Many marine beasties regularly (and naturally) cope with widely fluctuating temperatures, exposure to air, risk of dessication, widely fluctuating salinity, widely fluctuating levels of suspended sediments, widely fluctuating levels of dissolved oxygen, etc, etc. Many marine organisms are very hardy beasts becausethey have to be to survive. Particularly in deep water, disposal of sediment is really not a huge deal because the sediment tends to spread out as it settles so it become a thin dusting, rather than a dollop dropped in one spot. Small amounts of sediment can be coped with. I've seen years worth of specific quantitative data that shows in quite specific detail the effects of thin layer disposal of sediment over marine biological communities and its remarkable in the consistency with which it shows no adverse effects. Quite surprising really. Yes, we need to have respect for the sea, yes we need to have a precautionary approach, yes we should reduce our impacts as much as possible, but the marine environment does have quite a degree of robustness and persistence built into it. Note to self (and to John MI) Don't argue with Grinna about marine organisms.. You will lose! Link to post Share on other sites
Atom Ant 0 Posted December 13, 2011 Share Posted December 13, 2011 Note to self (and to John MI) Don't argue with Grinna about marine organisms.. You will lose! But does John Mi know why? Link to post Share on other sites
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