Why a Spanish designer

[wheels 543]

So G Dalton has been quite clear in his view of the design of Camper. Although I do feel it's slightly unfair to throw the muck at someone when you are at the forefront of yachting design. As a Manager, You make a decision and then you have to accept the blame as much yourself as for anyone else on the team that makes a stuff up. You chose them.

But anyway, my question is, why this Spanish designer and maybe more importantly, why not one of the NZ designers.

It is quite funny in some respects, that we have a NZ entry, yet Spanish designed, Austrailian Skippered, and Spanish Sponsored. Eeeer, did I just answer my question? Spanish sponsor says use spanish designer???

[Fogg 427]

I'd have thought Spanish sponsor says get whstvwre nationality designer to create a winning boat.

 

If I'm wrong an the Spsnish designer was forced on Camper then I understand Dalton's dissatisfaction. But if he did have free choice then I agree it's a bit sour grapes to be blaming him so public ally at this stage. What if the 2nd half of the race proved a turnaround and Camper suddenly starting to perform - would he publically reverse his criticism? Maybe.

 

But whatever the reason something different happened out there y'day, let's hope leg 5 conditions suit them better and they can pull off a leg win...

[Guest]

didn't Botin design the top ETNZ TP52( now hooligan)? so it can't be all bad.

 

Secondly, the boat is weaker than the others tight reaching which seems odd when you think about the speed these boats go and the apparent they must create!

[wheels 543]

Watching them yesterday, I could not really see a big difference in performance between boats. What split that field was having the local knowledge of the tidal current and wind around that harbour, oh and the couple of mistakes made by some at the Harbour bridge Mark. But all in all, the performance was so close that you really would have to say that when in the Blue Ocean, the bigger mistakes made would have to be routing.

[Fogg 427]

I still find it amazing that the margins after yesterday's 1 hr race were similar to some if the margins after nearly 3 weeks - thinking Camper and Tele arriving 100m apart into Auck from China.

[johnk 0]

one differnce we noted was the three juan K boats seemed to pop their knuckles out a bit sooner and easier than camper when running

[Guest]

What makes me laugh is the fact before the start and before they all lined up TNZ were very very confident in there boat and the fact they were exceeding polars and happy with the balance, now the cheap shots to the designer. Have they been caught out again, sounds very similar to the hulla Ac campain.

Hope they can pull finger this leg.

[Guest mental outlook]

Pretty sure Botin is ETNZ's in-house designer... he's a talented designer. Hard to call the boat slow when there is so little in it. Having the edge must be nice for Telefonica though!

 

Imagine how the Farr office is feeling right now.. a NZ designer!

[John B 106]

What makes me laugh is the fact before the start and before they all lined up TNZ were very very confident in there boat and the fact they were exceeding polars and happy with the balance, now the cheap shots to the designer. Have they been caught out again, sounds very similar to the hulla Ac campain.

Hope they can pull finger this leg.

Hey! The hula worked... till the legal beagles made them redo it and set it another 3 mm ( or so)off the hull.

 

IIRC the events of the time.

 

I was lucky enough to tag along to the sponsors night last tuesday and before all this ' the design is bad' stuff came out later in the week. The comments then were more along the lines of having to choose how to optomise the boats for the predicted weather and sailing angles. Camper's design targeted running conditions and has sailed well on the wind as well , but hasn't been reaching so well.

The implication being that they haven't had the running conditions and had far more reaching than they expected.

So this leg will be mighty interesting.

[BelowPAR 0]

Botin was an excellent design choice. The guy designed the fastest and most dominant TP52 ever, and had serious volvo credentials from the last edition with PUMA.

 

The point I reckon is the most interesting, is that Juan K effectively followed the along with Botin theory from PUMA (il Mostro) which had extremely extremely big chines and bouyancy aft.

While Botin decided that, with their experience they would do it differently and carry the buoyancy very far forward, and the balance the boat with the obviously radical keel configuration. The idea being to reduce the compromise on upwind and light airs performance.

 

Both theories are to achieve the exact same purpose, bow up control yet planning as far forward to max water line length. CAMPER plane as a 70 ft boat, the three JuanKs plane comfortably of 65 ish ft...

 

To go for as radical a change as Botin did, and have a boat that is not distinctly slower would surely point to the theory being sound(?). I reckon Camper is just slightly out of balance, and something as small as the rake of the rig, or a bit much focus on efficiency vs vertical lift on the j2 would be all it takes to get an edge on tight reaching conditions, and to couple that with the speed shown upwind and running, it would make for a weapon of a boat.

 

I certainly would not bag the designers for a lack of speed that is less than 2% on one angle of sail. Unless of course I was also running a campaign where than winner will be decided by percentage margin far less than that...

[Mothership 6]

We had a private sponsor's event with ETNZ on Tuesday afternoon, then joined the main sponsor's party, and on both occasions Dalts was open about the whole process and history up until now. As mentioned earlier, he said he'd 'been some dark places the last 2-3 weeks regarding boat design' but overall they were accepting of what they had.

 

Odd that this gets brought up here after seeing the man in the hot seat say himself they're getting on with it.

[Fogg 427]

Odd that this gets brought up here after seeing the man in the hot seat say himself they're getting on with it.

 

I think it's obvious why it's brought up here. Cos it was bought up by Dalton himself in this article only yesterday when he said things like: "I just guess we aren't going to be building any boats together again." (meaning with Botin).

 

Grant Dalton blasts Camper chief boat designer

http://www.stuff.co.nz/sport/other-sports/6593588/Grant-Dalton-blasts-Camper-boat-designer

[wheels 543]

Actually..maybe I didn't use the right words...my question wasn't really about any possible design problems and what Dalton may actually think, but it was supposed to be why a spanish designer and not a Kiwi designer like Farr or whoever. I thought we had as good as designers here on NZ. But a few of the replies here have been excellent information.

[Battgirl 23]

Nice pics Wheels. Who knows why, politics, price, tall poppy syndrome?

[Kestrahl 6]

A teams choice of designer for Volvo 70 (and other box rules) normally favors the person who designed the winning boat from the last race. Farr dominated the VOR for a long time to a point where it was almost undeserved as almost all the boats were his. Juan K was lucky to have a chance to design one of the fleet and showed up Farr big time. This blew the design side open and the last race had boats from 4 or 5? different designers. From TNZ's point of view they had a relationship with Botin and he had designed a boat in the last VOR, although it was not very successful it was something to build on. He has also designed the quickest TP52 (Has Juan K had a chance to do a TP52 for a high profile team?) Juan K would have been a safer bet from my point of view as at least you would be on a even footing with the other teams, but maybe they thought they could do better but ended up a generation behind as Juan K is setting the trend. I think them going with a local designer would have been considered to much of a long shot, we are not designing, developing or building boats like we used to, and especially not the wide ass style so the local guys aren't getting the chance to develop mini's, class 40s, etc etc. I would have liked to have seen a Ross or Elliott Whitbread 60 when Farr was dominating the class but unfortunately that never happened.

 

 

Actually..maybe I didn't use the right words...my question wasn't really about any possible design problems and what Dalton may actually think, but it was supposed to be why a spanish designer and not a Kiwi designer like Farr or whoever. I thought we had as good as designers here on NZ. But a few of the replies here have been excellent information.

[Guest Saturday Night Special]

great analysys of Mr Bootin but there are a couple of facts that some of us have noticed Bootins boats are good upwind and flat running BUT THEY DONT REACH what is the majority of the VOR? Juan K boats in general are quick reaching BUt What are they not good At ? this is not the Med cup or AC campers design faults rest on one person and it aint Mr bootin .in 1978 no one brought a Cater boat or SS to the one ton cup here .You go to the man on top in the design circles if you want to be competitiver or you analysise it copy and interprept it to the best of your ability but dont blame the designer you chose if it doesnt work out.PS I have think the camper design was initially drawn for another sindicate last race that didn't get the funding required.