Brass through hulls

[too_tall 15]

Popcorn anyone?

 

[DrWatson 381]

Come now gentlemen, let us not become too worked up over semantics.

 

Each person has their own understanding of the nomenclature surrounding metals and materials commensurate with their profession or education. Just as my definition of heavy metals doesn't include 1st row (3d) transition metals or metals which do not bioaccumulate, other people tend to include anything which might be remotely metallic. I've seen iron and even sodium and potassium included in environmental reports under the inappropriately broad heading of "heavy metals."

 

There are indeed many different alloys using copper as a base metal, and it seems that the current terminology is open to a fair (or un-fair) amount of interpretation.

 

Let us say we have a copper alloy which has the same percentage of Sn as it does Zn - do we call it a brass or a bronze? I'd call it brass - but that's me.

 

I think the most important ramifications come from what the legal definition of bronze, or marine bronze, would include, and whether this definition includes an implied maxima for Zn inclusion or a level of permanence which the average person could reasonably expect from a Bronze fitting.

 

Just like a pork pie which must contain a certain percentage of pig (note I don't say meat), or a wine which need not include on its label contributions to the blend if they are less than a certain % of a different-than-type grape, perhaps there is an accepted (and legally binding) nomenclature which should be applied but isn't. One must look at whether the use of the word "bronze" is being knowingly applied to intentionally mislead customers (or Euro boat manufacturers) about the quality and durability of a product. Given the technological history and knowledge surrounding copper and its alloys I would suggest that this misleading may be more than a little intentional.

 

Then there is the expectation that a product should be fit for its intended purpose, and the legal ramifications of selling a product which is not made from a material suitable to perform its designed task. If a company started selling lead-shafted screwdrivers with weetbix handles, or electrical wire insulated with wet spaghetti we'd have a clear breach of this, but with the brass/bronze thing it's a little more difficult to determine.

 

I'll just not put any through hulls below the water line...

 

Who was it who suggested making a central waste outlet in the boat using a piece of PVC glassed in place?

[Guest]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aluminium_bronze

 

and another enters the arena.........do wish Mike Rees would chime in here as he really does know his stuff with regard to this subject

[too_tall 15]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aluminium_bronze

 

and another enters the arena.........do wish Mike Rees would chime in here as he really does know his stuff with regard to this subject

 

Irrespective of if this is suitable for the original purpose of this thread, Aluminium Bronze is correctly named - being that the alloying agent is correctly identified as being other than tin.

[Guest]

I 'm I'm not too worried about the pedantics of what to call it. I'm more interested that some people think through hulls should last 5 years (not 30) and they are being installed by large manufacturers on boats being sold in NZ and the possibly the parts themselves are being sold here. As the OP said this could kill someone.

Probably we should be asking "How do we identify a through hull that is adequate?" Or should we all be replacing them with nylon?

[L'escale 0]

Thanks for bringing this back on track CO

 

yep I would have expected at least 30 years life with salt water exposed fittings.

 

And as for the manufacturer recommended annual inspection - they ALL looked fine on the outside.

 

To this day I would not have known about this problem if it had not been for the guy doing the replacement job on onother .....................

a few weeks ago, showing me the sad/bad pieces of brass crap.

 

I am not aware of the NZ agent directly contacting any owner on this although a very tame attempt (PR job) is tucked away on their web site under "news"

[Guest]

Oh f*ck me silly with a rudder gudgeon. Mr Ogre aren't you a worry, for gawd sake you just haven't got this capitalist sell sell sell thing at all sorted have you. 2/10 get your shite togeather!!!

 

I'll explain one more time in simple words.

 

Trevor is a power go hard Capitalist which generally means he's also quite materialistic and like lots of goodies. Trevor also owns a string of foundries in the US that makes metal thru-hulls. Trevor drinks a bit and one evening nailed a local barmaid big time. Sadly as Trevor was pissed and his dick was being massaged by Gaylene, the slapper of a barmaid, he didn't notice that the owner of the Motel Le Cockroach has a thing for hidden cameras and is also the owner of http://www.dodgymotelporn.com. Anyway a few weeks later it came to Cayennes attention, Trevor trophy wife, there was a video of her hubby doing the wild thing on the interweb. "Fucken A!" exclaims Cayenne, "Now I have him". She files for divorce so she can run away with Brad the pool guy who is hung like a donkey. Cayenne also takes Trevor for megabucks.

 

By this time Trevor is a tad broke but still has the foundries. He thinks "Whoo is me, I'm down to my last 10mil, how will I get by next week?'. So Trev moves all his manufacturing to a Asian country. He then starts to make some nice coin and soon his income is back to 1 mil a week. But that's just knot enough as Trev being the power capitalist thought he'd earn some easy coin and gave his mate Bernie serious millions to invest at 35% returns. Sadly Bernie wasn't that honest a dude and sort of spent it all, or at least the bits he didn't lose by bad investment calls. As an aside Bernie has now moved into a more modest home with his boyfriend Bubba. They call their affectionately named dwelling 'Cell 47'.

 

So Trevor is fucked yet again and knot in the good way as he's back down to a paltry 9 million bucks. He's a little buggered now as he's already moved to a cheap manufacturing base so what to do now he wonders. Ah ha, lets save costs by reducing quality. He has a few mates so gets them all to lobby the Govt and the EU into setting lifespans on gear in the interest of the public safety. As Mr EU Bureaucrat has never had a real job, is massively educated in the ways of passing Uni exams but f*ck all else he does think he's smart when really he's just a dick wasting valuable world resources like air when he breaths, so he thinks this idea by Trevor will make him look good so he's into it. A few million dollars of consultants later a new rule comes in saying all thru-hulls have to last 5 years. We can't have the wild west where all that shitty unregulated goings on pre this new rule can continue, that's just bad bad bad in bureaucracy world.

 

Trevor is now happy. He's moved all his manufacturing to a cheap country and now has managed to get the powers that be to officially and in an enforceable way to decrease the lifespan on his products by over 75%. Trevor now tells the factory "fire that lot in the Quality Assurance Dept and dump all those dead cars in the neighbours yard into the furnace. Better also cut our orders for copper by 50% please. Then go tell marketing to come up with some 'new n improved' marketing bullshit campaign to help explain a 15% increase in our selling price. Once you've done that ring the Ferrari dealer and get me a new one ordered for the 1st of Feb each year".

 

Trevor lies back on his tropical Island beach chair thinking 'Why didn't I get authorities to rule in favour of planned obsolescence earlier?'. He also has a quick itch of his man jewels. A week later still as smug as, he is at the Doctors as the itch has become quite a nasty oozing rash. It appears the Diamanté encrusted Butt Plug wasn't the only thing Gaylene pasted to Trevor.

 

And that Mr Ogre is the crux of this whole situation. It can be summarised thus -

- Why make something to last 30 years when less than 5 years is all the authorities will ping you for

- making something last 5 years rather than 30 years means increased profit

- after 5 years 50% of the punters now EXPECT things to be fucked so aren't that surprised.

- Why stress about quality when you can push a Authority into letting you make sh*t.

- At 1am that hot chick in the bar with the great knockers may look damn flash but she can often cum at a lot great cost that 1st it may appear.

 

While there may have been just a tiny touch of artistic license used above, the summery points are spot on and very very much alive out there in the real world. They aren't made up, they are real, very real.

 

That my dear Ogre is capitalism at it's finest. Yes, it is time to go extended sailing.

[Guest]

I am not aware of the NZ agent directly contacting any owner on this although a very tame attempt (PR job) is tucked away on their web site under "news"

One of the Euro importers has a list and on that is everything they will want to replace, tweak or whatever once they purchase. The punters are shown that before they sign the purchase paperwork. On that is 'dodgy thru-hulls, replace inside 5 years'.

 

I'm lead to believe knot al Euro importers maybe as straight up as this one.

[Grinna 2]

Planned obsolescence??

[smithy09 50]

Oh f*ck me silly with a rudder gudgeon. Mr Ogre aren't you a worry, for gawd sake you just haven't got this capitalist sell sell sell thing at all sorted have you. 2/10 get your shite togeather!!!

 

I'll explain one more time in simple words.

 

Trevor is a power go hard Capitalist which generally means he's also quite materialistic and like lots of goodies. Trevor also owns a string of foundries in the US that makes metal thru-hulls. Trevor drinks a bit and one evening nailed a local barmaid big time. Sadly as Trevor was pissed and his dick was being massaged by Gaylene, the slapper of a barmaid, he didn't notice that the owner of the Motel Le Cockroach has a thing for hidden cameras and is also the owner of http://www.dodgymotelporn.com. Anyway a few weeks later it came to Cayennes attention, Trevor trophy wife, there was a video of her hubby doing the wild thing on the interweb. "Fucken A!" exclaims Cayenne, "Now I have him". She files for divorce so she can run away with Brad the pool guy who is hung like a donkey. Cayenne also takes Trevor for megabucks.

 

By this time Trevor is a tad broke but still has the foundries. He thinks "Whoo is me, I'm down to my last 10mil, how will I get by next week?'. So Trev moves all his manufacturing to a Asian country. He then starts to make some nice coin and soon his income is back to 1 mil a week. But that's just knot enough as Trev being the power capitalist thought he'd earn some easy coin and gave his mate Bernie serious millions to invest at 35% returns. Sadly Bernie wasn't that honest a dude and sort of spent it all, or at least the bits he didn't lose by bad investment calls. As an aside Bernie has now moved into a more modest home with his boyfriend Bubba. They call their affectionately named dwelling 'Cell 47'.

 

So Trevor is fucked yet again and knot in the good way as he's back down to a paltry 9 million bucks. He's a little buggered now as he's already moved to a cheap manufacturing base so what to do now he wonders. Ah ha, lets save costs by reducing quality. He has a few mates so gets them all to lobby the Govt and the EU into setting lifespans on gear in the interest of the public safety. As Mr EU Bureaucrat has never had a real job, is massively educated in the ways of passing Uni exams but f*ck all else he does think he's smart when really he's just a dick wasting valuable world resources like air when he breaths, so he thinks this idea by Trevor will make him look good so he's into it. A few million dollars of consultants later a new rule comes in saying all thru-hulls have to last 5 years. We can't have the wild west where all that shitty unregulated goings on pre this new rule can continue, that's just bad bad bad in bureaucracy world.

 

Trevor is now happy. He's moved all his manufacturing to a cheap country and now has managed to get the powers that be to officially and in an enforceable way to decrease the lifespan on his products by over 75%. Trevor now tells the factory "fire that lot in the Quality Assurance Dept and dump all those dead cars in the neighbours yard into the furnace. Better also cut our orders for copper by 50% please. Then go tell marketing to come up with some 'new n improved' marketing bullshit campaign to help explain a 15% increase in our selling price. Once you've done that ring the Ferrari dealer and get me a new one ordered for the 1st of Feb each year".

 

Trevor lies back on his tropical Island beach chair thinking 'Why didn't I get authorities to rule in favour of planned obsolescence earlier?'. He also has a quick itch of his man jewels. A week later still as smug as, he is at the Doctors as the itch has become quite a nasty oozing rash. It appears the Diamanté encrusted Butt Plug wasn't the only thing Gaylene pasted to Trevor.

 

And that Mr Ogre is the crux of this whole situation. It can be summarised thus -

- Why make something to last 30 years when less than 5 years is all the authorities will ping you for

- making something last 5 years rather than 30 years means increased profit

- after 5 years 50% of the punters now EXPECT things to be fucked so aren't that surprised.

- Why stress about quality when you can push a Authority into letting you make sh*t.

- At 1am that hot chick in the bar with the great knockers may look damn flash but she can often cum at a lot great cost that 1st it may appear.

 

While there may have been just a tiny touch of artistic license used above, the summery points are spot on and very very much alive out there in the real world. They aren't made up, they are real, very real.

 

That my dear Ogre is capitalism at it's finest. Yes, it is time to go extended sailing.

 

Some imagination KM.. What have you been smoking now that nicotine is out??

[Guest]

Perfectly worded KM Some would even call you a "wordsmith"

In this case however, please swap cheap asian company to manufacture to "Italy"...hang on, isn't that where good chain comes from?

[wheels 543]

But it won't be that the fittings are made poorly, but that they are being used in the wrong situation.

[Guest]

In this case however, please swap cheap asian company to manufacture to "Italy"...hang on, isn't that where good chain comes from?

Correct the bestest, strongest and the only non-asian made chain to standards, bar AS2321, in Australasia does indeed come to us from Italy.

 

Trevor can be Italian or a NZer or even Swahili. Trevor was just used as an example and the technique isn't country specific, it is actually taught to NZers as a smart thing to do and it is being done by some NZ companies. Look around and you see lots of examples of similar activities, that includes a fair few in the marine game. The worst bit is many of you have fallen for those scams.

 

2. Ask the builder the following questions:

 

Can you please confirm that ALL the components used in the seacock assemblies are in compliance with ISO 9093-1 in terms of their corrosion resistance.

 

Can you please confirm the European CW designation for the materials used in ALL the components in the seacock assemblies? (Once this number is known the exact composition of the alloy and thus the component's suitability for saltwater use can be established).

And a boatbuilder here in NZ is going to check that how? By asking the person who sold it to them. 'Yes Mr Boat builder I can confirm I sold you sh*t dressed up as a glamour', Hmmm.... unlikely I suspect. Or 'Yes I checked with the factory and they tell me they are made to the ISO 9093-1 Standard'. Exactly like the 20-30 asian companies who have told us they can supply fully Lloyds Register approved studlink chains. But little do they know we chat to Lloyd's a lot who keeps a register of who they have approved and we have access to. Less than 10% of those who say they are approved and build to LR, actually are. Like chinese Test Certs on normal chains, non are actually Test Certs and over the last decade from all the many differing manufacturers easily 95% plus all have a 'Mr Pang' as the Quality Overseer. The Pang family must be damn big and taken up knocking up dodgy excel spreadsheets as a family business, surely nothing dodgy is afoot. Pass me a Tuis please.

 

 

Only a herbal calming remedy Smithy

[Guest]

Sage words motorbike....but who would you choose? Bearing in mind that most Euro manufacturers are here for the long haul and most Kiwi cruising boat builders are long gone......

[Old Girl 0]

Ok having read all the previous posts, tell me, please. Who should I get to replace a sea cock that appears almost past use buy, I dont use it just in case. What brand should I request thinking plastic? also what sort of cost should I expect to have job done? Dont want cheap, do want safe long term good value. Thanks if you can help.

[L'escale 0]

I used guy who originally commissioned yacht when new and now out on his own.

Used 'Hansen' fittings

Total cost for 10 skin fittings incl, sea cocks, tail pieces, hose clamps, new hoses, etc & labour was $2,800.00 incl GST.

I thought that was very reasonable.

Absolutelly recommend him

Blair Hannay

Anything Marine Ltd

021 673 922

[wheels 543]

Hansen fittings are OK, but I still prefer Marlon. You can smack em with a large hammer and the only thing that will break is your nose as the hammer or fitting flies up and smacks you one.

[Old Girl 0]

Will soon be making a call. Why did I leave it so long, yep, just did knot know who to call. Thanks so much.

[waikiore 403]

Well, well, well, firstly most of you Crew out there can relax as your kiwi built yacht / launch is likely to be fitted with Chatfield Engineering skinfittings if they are Bronze. And similarly a large number of the early imports were upgraded at pd time by the north shore kiwi boatbuilder when he was commisioning these craft. The CEL stamped skinfittings will last in excess of fifty years if no stray current is present. I know of many over this age. If however you prefer plastic things can be just as confusing, always go for Marelon or Zytel these are glass reinforced. And some of our large and less scrupulous chandlers these days are selling Brass skin fittings and valves and plain Delrin or basic plastic skin fittings. None of which should ever be fitted to permanently moored craft.If you are unsure ask a kiwi time served boatbuilder --There are plenty about --still.

After running Chatfields for many years (who have their own foundry) I have heard some very sad tales where inferior materials have been used on mainly imported boats, they are built to a price.

If you are lucky enough to have a timber boat think very carefully before bonding metals below the waterline I have seen many more issues caused by this well meaning work than solved. If however you have a Riviera or similar glass launch bond everything back to a large transom anode that is easily seen, but dont forget to check the contact on bonding wires and clean the shaft brush contact surface regularly.

Remember when having a nice little drink on someones big fizznasty and they comment on the clicking noise at night tell them about the perils of electrolysis.... but only laugh on the way home when you have rowed yes rowed out of earshot!! .