Guest Posted July 9, 2012 Share Posted July 9, 2012 On the home page. Who thinks 5 years life expectancy is good enough? Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Posted July 9, 2012 Share Posted July 9, 2012 Criminal. Brass is OK for a ship's bell but not for much else. Link to post Share on other sites
Kiteroa 8 Posted July 9, 2012 Share Posted July 9, 2012 Isn't this just a classic example of getting what you pay for? Link to post Share on other sites
wheels 543 Posted July 9, 2012 Share Posted July 9, 2012 Comment first..... like W.T has already stated. It annoys when people spout on about how much cheaper the piece of crap they just bought from overseas is compared to a NZ made one and then complains when cheap piece of crap acts in the way it was designed too. I also do not like Bronze through hulls, but they have also been used commercially for many years with no problems. Question....were the through hulls bonded?? Were Zincs anodes kept in good order. Even if a through hull was made of a poor brass, the Zinc anode should protect it till that anode is depleted enough to no longer offer protection. Too many boat owners try and squeeze as much time out of their "between haul outs" as they can without thinking about the anodes being no longer able to offer adequate protection. Finally, I wonder if NZ consumer law applies here. There should be a certain amount of expectation that components are going to last a reasonable amount of time, which I think that time is a minimum of 7yrs under the act. Link to post Share on other sites
Jon 360 Posted July 9, 2012 Share Posted July 9, 2012 As for the 5000 lucky owners I know that heaps are being replaced and they are finding deterioration in most. What a stupid thing to cut costs on, makes you think what other corners have been cut. Tick,tick,tick ......just a matter of time Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Posted July 9, 2012 Share Posted July 9, 2012 I like the "1 in 1000 so insignificant". If you produce 5000 per year you are saying that after 5 years we can expect 5 of your boats to sink every year? Wheels, read the surveyors report, covers the bonding issue. For a through hull even 7 years seems a bit light to me. Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Posted July 9, 2012 Share Posted July 9, 2012 And just to show we aren't picking on anyone, the surveyor mentioned tells me that they identified at least two major European manufacturers using brass through hulls. Link to post Share on other sites
Murky 1 Posted July 9, 2012 Share Posted July 9, 2012 For a through hull even 7 years seems a bit light to me. Agreed - seven years passes in a flash and a lot of people would still consider themselves owners of a "new boat" at that stage. Who wants to be smacking out skin fittings at that point? Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Posted July 9, 2012 Share Posted July 9, 2012 Sadly that doesn't surprise me in the slightest. For 2 reasons - 1 - A lot of stuff these days is made to a price point, which usually has a very direct impact on quality. That's 50% fault of the manufacturer and 50% fault of the end users, aka the punters. The makers should take some responsibility, if they intend to be around long term, to ensure their products fit the usual mind set of the punters, which is longer term than it appears some manufacturers think these days. The punters should be more aware of what they are buying, it's knot like everyone doesn't know that these days that even while to things may look the same the quality levels of each can be wildly different. Just suss how long your stuff lasts these days. Sure you have more choice, colours, shapes sizes and all that which continue to grow daily but look at durability/longevity of a lot of those goodies and you see that is generally decreasing. I'm tool shopping but knot at Bunnings, at garage sales by looking for Granddads old tools. They will easily outlast anything Bunnings is selling today........... and more importantly, keep a good edge for longer, sharpening things is an arse. 2 - Gordon Gecko is still alive and breathing hard. Some companies do run a 'take the coin no matter what you have to sell and how much bullshit you need to use to sell it' programme. That mindset is as alive and well in sections of NZ today as it is in Wall Street. There is even some out there here in NZ selling asian made stuff as NZ made. Sad, sad and dodgy as. So to see fittings knot lasting like the ones on your parents boat is 100% no surprise. Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Posted July 9, 2012 Share Posted July 9, 2012 So they don't get a surveyer when buying new? Link to post Share on other sites
rigger 47 Posted July 9, 2012 Share Posted July 9, 2012 I have removed a 55year old bronze skin fitting, thread had been damaged on the inside by some muppet, but no obvious signs of corrosion or deterioration. Link to post Share on other sites
NevP 0 Posted July 9, 2012 Share Posted July 9, 2012 There was a series of articles in the UK magazine Yachting Monthly about 18 months ago investigating and reporting on this issue. There is a brief mention of it on their website, http://www.yachtingmonthly.com/plus/527 ... ock-checks. Apparently not all bronze is created equal. Being an alloy it depends on the composition and it is not always obvious from a visual insection what you might actually have. The problem appears to be that the 5 years specified under EU law means that manufacturers can get away with the cheap nasty stuff (that's closer to brass than bronze), so many of them are. I assume that Riggers example of a 55 yr old fitting is not unusual for quality bronze but not so for the inferior stuff. If anyone is interested I can dig out the articles to scan and email. Link to post Share on other sites
L'escale 0 Posted July 9, 2012 Share Posted July 9, 2012 Congrats Wheels - 1st prize for first "Euro Bash" Comment first..... like W.T has already stated. It annoys when people spout on about how much cheaper the piece of crap they just bought from overseas is compared to a NZ made one and then complains when cheap piece of crap acts in the way it was designed too. The $500.000+ "piece of crap" has fitted ex factory, very expensive Harken, Lewmar, Raymarine, Yanmar, ZF, Edson etc etc. We love the design and the build quality. We visited the factory and as an ex engineer was most impressed with attention to detail and hand laid hull with not a robot in sight. They have been building boats/yachts for over 100 years that still include North Sea fishing boats.We have never made a warranty (5 years) claim - the brass thru hulls are a first for us and apparently are right across the Euros including mega million dollar Scandinavians. However it does not take away the fact that this problem is not going to go away and must be given more publicity. Also if owners of Euros think at least they have insurance then think again - this is from my policy wording We do not cover: Physical damage or losses caused by or resulting from normal wear and tear, gradual deterioration, delamination, marine life (except for marine mammals and large fish), electrolysis, osmosis, corrosion, rust, dampness, normal wetting or weathering. So can I just finish (for now) by suggesting that if you want to Euro Bash then start another thread and help this one by letting Euro owners you know, about this problem. Link to post Share on other sites
TimW 1 Posted July 10, 2012 Share Posted July 10, 2012 Those plastic Hansen fittings are really cheap. I can't believe Brass ones would be cheaper than those. They most certainly aren't at Sailors Corner. So if the plastic ones are much the same price as brass its probably just the stupid Euro regs that have lead to the decision to use brass skin fittings? Link to post Share on other sites
wheels 543 Posted July 10, 2012 Share Posted July 10, 2012 Congrats Wheels - 1st prize for first "Euro Bash" Sorry, I have to accept second. Plus I hope you don't think Lewmar and Harken are top quality. Just quite how my comment was euro bashing I don't know. But lets weigh this up. Euro built boat, built cheap to be cheap, hence how it can be imported here to NZ and sold cheap. Link to post Share on other sites
wheels 543 Posted July 10, 2012 Share Posted July 10, 2012 Wheels, read the surveyors report, covers the bonding issue. Squid, that surveyors comment on bonding is exactly what I have said here in the past. It is best not to bond. But the problem we now have with the new electrical laws means everything must be bonded. That is fine if the anodes are working, but dangerous if not. As long as the anode is good, the zinc will be protected in the through hulls. There are a couple of comments made in their report about the make up of Bronze that are wrong however. Bronze does have zinc. The amount varies as to the manufacturer. But ruffly 15% Zinc. Lead is added for machineability and sometimes Silicon instead for the same. What sets DR bronze/Brass aside is that it requires a very specialised process to make it and it is thus expensive. Like we find with Chinese chains, anything made cheap to be cheap often misses out on those expensive processes. So you may have the correct mix of metals to make Bronze, but end up with an Alloy that does not work that way. When Bronze is made, the Zinc and Copper molecules bond together. This is what stops the Zinc from simply eating away when an anode is present and working properly. When the bronze is subject to the electrical current, both the copper and Zinc leave the bronze alloy together. The copper and Zinc molecule part company and the copper is pulled back to the Bronze alloy. This is what then causes the red spongy copper material we see in the brass alloy. So you can see it is a lot more complex than just the fact that there is zinc in the bronze and i haven't even scratched the surface of the subject on it. Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Saturday Night Special Posted July 10, 2012 Share Posted July 10, 2012 Ok since you started throwing big names like Harken and Lewmar around, as An Ex Harken tech These pieces of Euro Trash are generally under speced and are built down to a price not up to a standard they may look great in appearance but are a problem waiting to happen in a time frame inside a decade. WARNING you get what you pay for ! Link to post Share on other sites
otto 31 Posted July 10, 2012 Share Posted July 10, 2012 Cheap crap maybe. But whatever the cause it would be good to know. Riggers fitting along with others would soon dissolve within the right environmemt. In fact one boat i'm involved with i am keeping a close eye on in regards to an aluminium boat a few berths away if they get some clown to connect it to the grid as some marina's are insisting. Not saying it is but be aware the saga of power supplies, and here again was the reply i got from someone i asked advice “Boats. One concern with people being forced into having a permanent installation on their boat, is that they will endeavour to do so as cheaply as possible and may satisfy the electrical regulations, but without proper knowledge of galvanic corrosion and galvanic isolators, run the very real risk of rapid deterioration of hull, skin fittings, prop shafts etc. This can happen to any boat with any metal in contact with the water. Direct connection with the shore earth provides a parallel path for any currents generated anywhere in the shore earthing system to exit to earth through the vessels vulnerable metalwork. The user may not be electrocuted but that wouldn’t count for much if he drowns when his boat sinks." I had arranged for a working party which would be helpful for both marina operaters and boat owners but with this was not taken up within the Ak region. So they may be cheap, but then the expensive ones may also dissappear with the right environment and what some are doing with the electrical connections now. Link to post Share on other sites
wheels 543 Posted July 10, 2012 Share Posted July 10, 2012 Yes correct Otto. But just because it is an ally or steel boat does not make it any worse than any other material, if there is an electrical problem. All boats have metal in the water and are thus capable of producing problems. The best way to safegaurd your boat is isolation via either a Galvanic isolator or an isolating transformer. I prefer the GI. Cheaper than a transformer, small in size, simple and weighs virtually nothing and can even be made by someone with a little skill with a soldering iron and being able to know which way around to connect diodes. Link to post Share on other sites
otto 31 Posted July 10, 2012 Share Posted July 10, 2012 Agree there wheels but a metal boat is more likely to have some clown bonding it because they think its correct. Link to post Share on other sites
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