Guest Posted February 20, 2012 Share Posted February 20, 2012 The Young 11 is reported to have been photgraphed by an air force plain with the 20 ltr containers on the rail ! ( was the owner a lawer and now a judge ???) The 1104 was raced regularly back then and was rated for IMS at the time.( Fractional kyte only.) It passed us one night with the masthead kite on. Was that the same one ? ( I think so ) Both of the above people dont do much racing now. Also recall while competing in a Auckland / Fiji race the entire fleet ran into a big hole for 24 hours. Most of the fleet reported their progress of between 2 and 4 miles for that period. But two boats, one an old style Davidson 35 and a bigger boat from Tauranga recorded 22 and 26 miles. Both boats ended up on the podium. 1st and 3rd on PHRF. During the Fiji presedents cup regatta we kicked both of them in light conditions. I just cant work out how they did so well in no wind for 24 hours. Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Posted February 20, 2012 Share Posted February 20, 2012 Note to self.... buy blow up dolls , fill with water and then put on the rail Link to post Share on other sites
mortein 0 Posted February 20, 2012 Share Posted February 20, 2012 The Young 11 is reported to have been photgraphed by an air force plain with the 20 ltr containers on the rail ! ( was the owner a lawer and now a judge ???) The 1104 was raced regularly back then and was rated for IMS at the time.( Fractional kyte only.) It passed us one night with the masthead kite on. Was that the same one ? ( I think so ) Both of the above people dont do much racing now. Also recall while competing in a Auckland / Fiji race the entire fleet ran into a big hole for 24 hours. Most of the fleet reported their progress of between 2 and 4 miles for that period. But two boats, one an old style Davidson 35 and a bigger boat from Tauranga recorded 22 and 26 miles. Both boats ended up on the podium. 1st and 3rd on PHRF. During the Fiji presedents cup regatta we kicked both of them in light conditions. I just cant work out how they did so well in no wind for 24 hours. answer 1st yes indeed, knew the pilot of the orion, and crew members confirmed the story over several rums at the PCC. The 1104 also had a new keel and double spreader rig. On the subject of unmeasured sails; on my previous boat , an 1104, another owned by one of the pillars of the yachting world took 25 minutes out of me under kite from Flat Rock to Orakei to finish 20 minutes behind me and just pip me on IOR for 1st in a Balokovic, it rated a bit less. Yet in Daylight over the winter series it had never made a dent in me downwind. How? One of the crew related to me they hoisted a Stewart 34 kite at Flat Rock. The owner claimed to have been asleep downstairs, but why was it even on board? Still claimed the prize. Incidentally I had my boat remeasured and it came out considerably less owing to the measurers mistake on inputed the age date for my boat. I can fully believe your Fiji story, with modern techn ology , GPS etc it is possible to track the entire fleet. They did this in a race I competed in recently from Taiwan to China and fully 30% of the fleet were DSQ or DNF. Link to post Share on other sites
B00B00 310 Posted February 20, 2012 Share Posted February 20, 2012 Yes but its the same old story, no one can believe a boat can be sailed better than them..... 2-4nm in 24hrs in the ocean, that's pretty pitiful, even with a windseeker/drifer/flopper doing its thing and trimmed properly in an ocean swell you should be able to do 15-20nm no prob , hell even the #4 sheeted to the mast base would get you 10nm. Remember that a 1 kt average is 24nm a day. Also they might have lined a few squalls up overnight, the 2 till 4am shift in the horse lattitudes always has squalls and with a hand bearing compass. And knowing what to look for you can really line up on the right edge of one and gain 10-20nm easy. And downwind, they could have trimmed/helmed/pumped the boat better than you and played the shifts properly and went the right direction, they also could have brought the wind down... Everyone has a case where they think someone must have cheated but generally its because they struggle to believe they got beaten. I'm not sticking up for anyone as I think it was way before my time and not trying to be rude, just another perspective to think about. I really think that not much cheating goes on in our sport. Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Posted February 20, 2012 Share Posted February 20, 2012 Thats cool BooBoo and I would like to think you are correct. But knowing the two boats and the crew on them I doubt very much if you are. I doubt if they had the experience. The bigger of the boats was in front of us and the other one behind so only one could have bought up the breeze. The fleet was a bit bigger than we get these days and none of them did more than about 4 miles that night. As a matter of interest, we suspected yet another boat had also motored so I sent one of my crew to congratulate them after they had finnished and to have a friendly chat.. One of the crew admitted motoring that night so I protested them. Fortunately they admitted that to the jury and were DSQ. They had in fact won the race on IMS and PHRF but were chucked out. Sorry but that is cheating. ( I could name the boat if you want to check it out.) Link to post Share on other sites
B00B00 310 Posted February 20, 2012 Share Posted February 20, 2012 Fair enough then Mark, sounds like you had some reasonable evidence. I'm sure there are legitimate cases but I just hate accusations..... Link to post Share on other sites
mortein 0 Posted February 20, 2012 Share Posted February 20, 2012 I take your point there are always sore losers. I used to handicap boats for RYC and just about everyone reckoned they should have won on H/C However sometimes boats appear to defy the laws of physics. If you check back we have stuck to suspicions which were later confirmed. Link to post Share on other sites
OYSTR 1 Posted February 20, 2012 Share Posted February 20, 2012 ... I used to handicap boats for RYC and just about everyone reckoned they should have won on H/C ... you must have done a good job then as isn't this how HC is supposed to work ie. everyone has a chance of winning Link to post Share on other sites
mortein 0 Posted February 20, 2012 Share Posted February 20, 2012 I figured I'd got it right when evryone complained Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Posted February 21, 2012 Share Posted February 21, 2012 Interesting topic this one. The stacking of sails has always enjoyed great debate. For the noumea race this year we have amended the rule to allow stacking of sails on deck. Just makes sense. Link to post Share on other sites
B00B00 310 Posted February 21, 2012 Share Posted February 21, 2012 Hmmmm yes and no. Agree the stacking of sails has always been an issue. But I don't believe stacking sails on the rail is such a good idea. Maybe you should be allowed 2 sails on deck but the rest can be stacked downstairs. I have had a few situations with crash gybes and tacks with stacked rails and it is not pretty. The tack was the worst, going upwind on a100ft canting keel supermaxi delivering the boat from antigua to newport for the transatlantic when the helmsman got crossed up and we ended up on our side with the keel the wrong way. Anyway the bunch of delivery and race sails stacked on the rail went swimming taking 5 stantions with them, it was messy..... Took hrs to get sorted and was very dangerous. We were lucky to get them back. Rail stacking when done properly is also VERY physically demanding. I think it will just broaden the gap between the pros and amatures as the top guys if allowed, will stack everything_down to the last teespoon and have every sail lashed on the rail. Great idea but may need a bit of fine tuning Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Posted February 21, 2012 Share Posted February 21, 2012 Maybe the the same guy who previously owned an Elliot 10. Who was infamous at the Ponce for being passed twice in races. Used to have problems with mark rounding! despite the GPS! I think the German boat was moving internal ballast. Those IOR boats used to carry heaps of lead inside but it had to be fixed. Cheating in NZ... always been there all the time I was sailing which is why I got out of class racing and IOR. Unmeasured sails, not sailing the course being not uncommon. Then there was the Young 11 did a record time to Fiji which arrived with the top half of her name erased by the rubbing of the water containers on one side. Farr 1104 finished legs of Fukuoka race with masthead spinnaker halyard still attached! Mainy more examples I could name. "Thomas I Punkt" german admirals cup boat, '80s i think, one of a series. Was found to have installed pipes in the floors which enabled water tanks to be transferred from one side to another prior to each tack. chucked out, think both owner (on board) and crew (professionals) were banned for several years. A Fastnet from memory, and in fact they used 20ltr containers tied to the rail, and cut them up at the end of the race. This is full on cheating, and yes they were banned for years. I have once found someone cheating, it was when one of my own boats was getting a refit, and our crew jumped aboard an Elliot 40 (which is still being campained under a different name) with and idiot owner to do the coastal. Long story short, light race midnight off Tootsish and he decides he should charge the batteries. After 5 min we seemed to be going well all of a sudden, we asked 2- 3 times if it was in gear, then discvered it was, just 800 or 1000 revs. I had to prize the hands of a firey Irishman who shall remain nameless, from the throat of the boat owner. We walked off the boat in Russell and never spoke again. Cheating w^&#$@r has been out of yachting for years. Most non complyance in NZ is pushing the boundrys in Class rules, and really that is up to the class to police, the better they do it the stronger the class because the more level the performance. I just saw this. R u thick skinned, or maybe skin has nothing to do with it. No Terry, this was you, and your boat. I don't believe you don't remember the two minutes you cowered in the cockpit corner b4 disappearing below for the rest o the race. Back under your rock. Link to post Share on other sites
johnMi 2 Posted February 21, 2012 Share Posted February 21, 2012 Interesting.. Link to post Share on other sites
Marshy 30 Posted February 22, 2012 Share Posted February 22, 2012 Popcorns ready... Link to post Share on other sites
Fogg 427 Posted February 22, 2012 Share Posted February 22, 2012 Hmmmm yes and no. Agree the stacking of sails has always been an issue. But I don't believe stacking sails on the rail is such a good idea. Maybe you should be allowed 2 sails on deck but the rest can be stacked downstairs. I have had a few situations with crash gybes and tacks with stacked rails and it is not pretty. The tack was the worst, going upwind on a100ft canting keel supermaxi delivering the boat from antigua to newport for the transatlantic when the helmsman got crossed up and we ended up on our side with the keel the wrong way. Anyway the bunch of delivery and race sails stacked on the rail went swimming taking 5 stantions with them, it was messy..... Took hrs to get sorted and was very dangerous. We were lucky to get them back. Rail stacking when done properly is also VERY physically demanding. I think it will just broaden the gap between the pros and amatures as the top guys if allowed, will stack everything_down to the last teespoon and have every sail lashed on the rail. Great idea but may need a bit of fine tuning Back in my UK racing days (many years ago) it seemed to be a widely known rule that stacking sails in any sense was a complete no-no (above or below dekcs). So it never seemed to be done. Maybe the rules have changed a bit, dunno. The only rule-pushing I remember seeing was some guys decided to carry around their daily supply of water with them (1.5 l bottle) which obviously gave them a bit of extra weight on the rail - til they drank it and then pissed it away again. Not sure if that was illegal but it seemed a bit questionable. Link to post Share on other sites
mortein 0 Posted February 22, 2012 Share Posted February 22, 2012 I only did 2 Coastal Classics in DM which one do you claim to have been on? Put up or shut up!What year? What was your boat having a refit? "Thomas I Punkt" german admirals cup boat, '80s i think, one of a series. Was found to have installed pipes in the floors which enabled water tanks to be transferred from one side to another prior to each tack. chucked out, think both owner (on board) and crew (professionals) were banned for several years. A Fastnet from memory, and in fact they used 20ltr containers tied to the rail, and cut them up at the end of the race. This is full on cheating, and yes they were banned for years. I have once found someone cheating, it was when one of my own boats was getting a refit, and our crew jumped aboard an Elliot 40 (which is still being campained under a different name) with and idiot owner to do the coastal. Long story short, light race midnight off Tootsish and he decides he should charge the batteries. After 5 min we seemed to be going well all of a sudden, we asked 2- 3 times if it was in gear, then discvered it was, just 800 or 1000 revs. I had to prize the hands of a firey Irishman who shall remain nameless, from the throat of the boat owner. We walked off the boat in Russell and never spoke again. Cheating w^&#$@r has been out of yachting for years. Most non complyance in NZ is pushing the boundrys in Class rules, and really that is up to the class to police, the better they do it the stronger the class because the more level the performance. I just saw this. R u thick skinned, or maybe skin has nothing to do with it. No Terry, this was you, and your boat. I don't believe you don't remember the two minutes you cowered in the cockpit corner b4 disappearing below for the rest o the race. Back under your rock. Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Posted February 22, 2012 Share Posted February 22, 2012 Bull Fight! Link to post Share on other sites
Megwyn 2 Posted February 22, 2012 Share Posted February 22, 2012 Bull Fight! Ouch Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Posted February 22, 2012 Share Posted February 22, 2012 I have checked with others that my recolections noted here almost 2 years ago were correct, and they are! Around 1992 or 93 I believe. Midnight Oil (my boat) was U.S. due either to re-keeling work(took twice as long cost twice as much as always) or a misshap on the hard when it fell over, one or the other. Comming back to you now? Link to post Share on other sites
johnMi 2 Posted February 27, 2012 Share Posted February 27, 2012 Bull wins!! Link to post Share on other sites
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