Cheating

[Battleship 100]

the rules are clear and i wonder how canting keels are not termed "moveable ballast"? and thus cant be moved post the 10 min gun.

 

Thats a good point most of the major races change rule 51 to allow moveable ballast, so in these races can we happily move as much dead weight as we like? anyone got a NOR handy?

[Brett Bakewell-White 0]

Canting keels are moveable ballast as is water ballast and neither can be used while racing unless the race organiser has specifically said so in the sailing instructions. This is usually done as a clause that alters Rule 51. YNZ issued suitable wording some years ago and most clubs have it as a standard clause in their race documentation, but it should not be taken as a given. Canting keels are illegal under the standard vanilla racing rules.

[Guest Dry Reach]

Is dumping water moving ballast? i would say it is worse (especially while underway and downwind) as this is reducing the boats weight?

 

and whats the difference between water ballast tanks and water storage tanks? other than placement in the boat. could someone have port and starboard 500Litre water storage tanks (for drinking) that are connected?

and not measured as water ballast?

[Guest]

Is dumping water moving ballast? i would say it is worse (especially while underway and downwind) as this is reducing the boats weight? Dunno, you might have a point, but I'd like to see a rule telling me i can't.

 

and whats the difference between water ballast tanks and water storage tanks? other than placement in the boat. could someone have port and starboard 500Litre water storage tanks (for drinking) that are connected?

and not measured as water ballast?

 

Connected and able to be moved? That's cheating if not declared. But why would you do that with fresh water when you can dump salt water and then refill when needed? On the other hand, is the advantage of dumping salt water in a water ballasted boat taken into account in the handicap.. Must be very useful to lighten the boat by a ton when required.

[Guest]

Oh for the good old days when they threw half the crew overboard at the top mark.

[Guest Dry Reach]

Oh for the good old days when they threw half the crew overboard at the top mark.

Did that in Hartley 16's with the third "hidden" person. then they banned it.

[markm 30]

Dry Reach, the difference between water ballast and fresh water tanks isn't in the mechanics but in the declaration that you have it and are using it, accepted that the R51 waiver is available in the race and you have nominated your boat on the entry as using moveable ballast. Well, it's a touch more complicated in that their are a couple of rule compliance things that your ballast or canting system has to comply with but you get the idea.

 

Willow, afraid it wouldn't work even if you declared yourself as a 'moveable ballast' boat. The right to move ballast under the waiver only applies to systems which comply with the special movable ballast regs mentioned above, I suppose I should know the RRS number but it escapes me for the moment. Moving say 48 crates of beer from one side to the other is probably frowned upon, though I can't really see how anyone could find passing it up to the blokes on the windward rail objectionable?

[Battleship 100]

Wasn't wanting to go down the moveable ballast route,nor would I want 48 crates of beer on board to move around, just don't see the sense of tripping over sails for the whole race when they are much better off tucked into a bunk behind a lee cloth, it's just good seamanship to have the cabin tidy and organised.

As long as you are moving stuff for the right reasons and not strapping all your sails to the weather rail I don't see why there should be a problem. I'm sure most reasonble folk wouldn't protest unless someone was really taking the piss.

[Fish 0]

Here is a scenario then. Keelboat has a swing keel, i.e. a keel stub that the keel / daggerboard swings up into.

Boat races upwind with keel down, raises it downwind.

 

Under Rule 51 is that cheating?

[Guest]

My comments earlier about fresh water tanks, and the legality of pumping water from one side to the other was driven by my yacht having 100 litres tanks either side under the saloon berths.

I then realised that I needed to fit a valve to stop the water transferring to the leeward side by itself if the tanks are not both full.

[Battleship 100]

Fish: Yes if it improves stability or trim it isn't allowed.

 

Slacko: We have 4 tanks under the setee 100 litres each and just have T valves to isolate them, its a good idea to isolate them regardless in case on gets a leak or gets contaminated, I think under the safety regs they need to be able to be isolated also.

[Guest]

If you set-up your potable water tanks so you could transfer it around during racing and didn't declare it, I'd be calling you a cheat. It'd would be no different than pumping undeclared saltwater around.

 

I have no issues with people swapping the odd sail from side to side as Willow suggests. The weight would be 2/10's of feck all and there is the seamanship angle to take into account, which is the only reason we move the raft sometimes. If you religiously swap the entire wardrobe from side to side each tack that is getting very marginal in our books.

 

All good complying with the rules but at the end of the day most would prefer to be a live technical cheat than death by poor seamanship.

[Atom Ant 0]

Hey Fish, I don't think Barry lifts his pen knife board while racing downwind.

[SloopJohnB 322]

If you set-up your potable water tanks so you could transfer it around during racing and didn't declare it, I'd be calling you a cheat. It'd would be no different than pumping undeclared saltwater around..

 

If it is not declared that water is moved from side to side whether fresh or salt water is cleating.

 

Not sure if dumping fresh water while at sea is cleating, but on some boats I have sailed on its amazing how thirsty the crew can get when the wind goes light and all the potable water tanks are full.

[SloopJohnB 322]

100 gallons thru a foot pump builds up the calve muscles, far better squats.

[Guest]

 

Not sure if dumping fresh water while at sea is cheating, but on some boats I have sailed on its amazing how thirsty the crew can get when the wind goes light and all the potable water tanks are full.

 

Well I'm not sure either but I guess if you're doing it to alter the trim of the boat, as per the rule, then it must be cheating. Last thing I want to do is cheat or feel like I have to give back all the silverware so it would be nice to have it clarified.

[Guest Dry Reach]

Exactly what i was eluding to!..

 

Just like having a leak in the water tank (due to a loose fitting) and having to bail the tainted water out of the bilge!!

 

What happened to the random pre race checks???

[Clipper 343]

pre race checks would pick up the required amount of water, how will a pre race check pick up the crew emptying the tanks during a race?

And to be honest, while it is immoral perhaps, it is probably not cheating, anymore then being thirstier in the first part of a race is. Using emergency water after you have purposefuly drained the tanks would be cheating though?

[Guest Dry Reach]

pre race checks would pick up the required amount of water, how will a pre race check pick up the crew emptying the tanks during a race?

And to be honest, while it is immoral perhaps, it is probably not cheating, anymore then being thirstier in the first part of a race is. Using emergency water after you have purposefuly drained the tanks would be cheating though?

 

 

I was thinking pre race checks to ensure that there was not 4,000 litres of water stowed for a 24 hr "Windy start - carm finish" type race where guys load up then dump. (ie Auck - BOI)

 

also to check whats on board for saftey and whats "heavy" on board that might get moved... or what not onboard that should be?

[mortein 0]

Maybe the the same guy who previously owned an Elliot 10. Who was infamous at the Ponce for being passed twice in races. Used to have problems with mark rounding! despite the GPS!

 

I think the German boat was moving internal ballast. Those IOR boats used to carry heaps of lead inside but it had to be fixed.

 

Cheating in NZ... always been there all the time I was sailing which is why I got out of class racing and IOR. Unmeasured sails, not sailing the course being not uncommon.

Then there was the Young 11 did a record time to Fiji which arrived with the top half of her name erased by the rubbing of the water containers on one side.

Farr 1104 finished legs of Fukuoka race with masthead spinnaker halyard still attached!

Mainy more examples I could name.

"Thomas I Punkt"

 

german admirals cup boat, '80s i think, one of a series. Was found to have installed pipes in the floors which enabled water tanks to be transferred from one side to another prior to each tack.

 

chucked out, think both owner (on board) and crew (professionals) were banned for several years.

 

A Fastnet from memory, and in fact they used 20ltr containers tied to the rail, and cut them up at the end of the race. This is full on cheating, and yes they were banned for years.

 

I have once found someone cheating, it was when one of my own boats was getting a refit, and our crew jumped aboard an Elliot 40 (which is still being campained under a different name) with and idiot owner to do the coastal. Long story short, light race midnight off Tootsish and he decides he should charge the batteries. After 5 min we seemed to be going well all of a sudden, we asked 2- 3 times if it was in gear, then discvered it was, just 800 or 1000 revs.

 

I had to prize the hands of a firey Irishman who shall remain nameless, from the throat of the boat owner. We walked off the boat in Russell and never spoke again. Cheating w^&#$@r has been out of yachting for years.

 

Most non complyance in NZ is pushing the boundrys in Class rules, and really that is up to the class to police, the better they do it the stronger the class because the more level the performance.