Flares

[wheels 543]

You are not getting my point. I am not stating examples, I am saying that this is the path the country is heading down. It's the path of cover your butt, cause if it ain't covered, someones going to use it as a target.

What I am saying is that if you handed out expired flares and something goes wrong, I bet you a buck that the person that handed it out would get a right royal kicking by the law, or at least some dickhead, like say a "BS" is going to come out of the soggy woodwork and try and sue you anyway. Yep maybe it would get thrown out of court like the cycling incident, I don't know, but I ain't volunteering to find out. But put yourself in this situation. Do you want to have the stress of legal action and that going on for a year till it gets to be put through court??? I sure wouldn't.

And think this through a little, you can't just put a lucky dip box by the boat ramp that people dump flares into and a sign that say's "help yourself". So you need someone to monitor it. That requires some kind of organisation, be it just one or two people even. But as soon as it is an organisation, then you are imediately under certain laws of protection for the boaters. I maybe wrong with this comment, but maybe even OSH could be involved. Certainly there would some kind of "consumer" protection, even though they didn't pay anything.

And besides, why do you think there is a reason that the Flares have an expiry date in the first place??? and why do they say get the things off your boat after a certain time ??? Because as Jono said, after a few years past expiry, they start getting pretty wacky.

But anyway, aside from all that, it was just an off the side comment. We are tacking this entire thread off track.

[Guest Dry Reach]

This may be a dumb question?

 

With Epirb's that tell rescuers where you are, high powered transmitters... and hi tech strobe light technology that is seen further than hand held flares and some parachute flares (and google earth live? )

 

why do we need these bloody expensive and highly unreliable flares?

 

is this a gravy train?

[Guest]

I vaguely remember reading somewhere the Pom version of CG changing their minds about flares, can't remember the gist of it - anybody?

 

When you think about it, carrying a bunch of nasty pyrotechnics probably isn't too smart. Is it another of those things we do because we are told to/that's what everyone does, without giving it due thought?

[Murky 1]

I don't know - I can envisage a fair few scenarios where the electric/electronic options would be the first to be wiped out. My feeling would be that they are still playing an important part in many of the rescues we have in NZ. But I would agree that the issue of expiries and whether we are able to use them as competently as hoped when required is probably a different story.

[Guest]

As always the thread is drifting.

It is safe to assume Maritime NZ and Yachting NZ are reviewing both quantities of flares for regulations and equipment in Cat 1 life rafts now that EPIRBs / Sat phones / better VHF are all so much better and more prevalent. Nothing happens overnight but it is being looked at.

NZ flare requirements are far less than Oz. And NZ flare requirements were reduced for the current rule book.

[Bimini Babe 0]

I read something in PBO recently about UK CG and flares... apparently there's some data collection going on to determine how many people have used flares to save their skin vs the number of dimwits who have used flares to burn their skin off. Presumably the ratio will go some way towards determining the outcome.

[Guest]

It is safe to assume Maritime NZ and Yachting NZ are reviewing both quantities of flares for regulations and equipment in Cat 1 life rafts now that EPIRBs / Sat phones / better VHF are all so much better and more prevalent. Nothing happens overnight but it is being looked at.

.

 

No doubt you are right Jono, but for some reason it always raises my hackles to be told "don't worry, we're looking after you". Maybe it's just me being a psycho, but I prefer to make informed decisions for myself than blindly accept "an expert recommendation". (No offence to the experts involved, I know a few of them and have respect for their opinions)

[Guest Dry Reach]

I read something in PBO recently about UK CG and flares... apparently there's some data collection going on to determine how many people have used flares to save their skin vs the number of dimwits who have used flares to burn their skin off. Presumably the ratio will go some way towards determining the outcome.

 

 

yeah! i would rather die by trying to live on my liferaft and get through a few wet, cold and hungry days than have massive burns from a device nobody saw and live in my liferaft with more pain than i had too!

 

by the way i think failure of flares is bigger than failure of Epirbs!

 

 

And this aint thread drift!

[Murky 1]

yeah! i would rather die by trying to live on my liferaft and get through a few wet, cold and hungry days than have massive burns from a device nobody saw and live in my liferaft with more pain than i had too!

You knew there were more choices than just those two, yes?

[wheels 543]

One really big issue in the UK is that no one will take the old flares. I don't know if this is like an OSH thing or not over there, but some safety Red tape brigade has placed so many stringent requirments on holding flartes, it apparently got too hard for everyone that normally took old flares, to be bothered with it all. And that includes thier CoastGaurd.

[Elenya 33]

I vaguely remember reading somewhere the Pom version of CG changing their minds about flares, can't remember the gist of it - anybody?

 

When you think about it, carrying a bunch of nasty pyrotechnics probably isn't too smart. Is it another of those things we do because we are told to/that's what everyone does, without giving it due thought?

 

 

The UKMCA (Maritime and Coastguard Agency) still collects flares bu only at a very few of their offices. I got a nice leaflet posted to me as our yacht is UK registered. Good to see they let you know where to dump them. (The UK MCA is the government agency for all things maritime, unlike the NZ CG which is more of the AA of sea).

 

It would be interseting to see any stats on flares use in rescues. I would imagine it is quite low and not a very cost effective method given the low cost of a GPS 406.

[Murky 1]

Here's one, from on this site - it took a bit of finding.

 

First-off, I have to say that it is well back in the day so GPS probably didn't get a look-in at the time. And yet, in the circumstances (others in a race fleet reasonably close but not necessarily monitoring their VHFs) flares served quite a useful function and a visual guide to the location of the vessel in distress.

 

http://crew.org.nz/previous/NEWS/Local+ ... ztec..html

[Guest]

why do we need these bloody expensive and highly unreliable flares?

 

As because as unreliable as flares are, and having let off dozens over the years a few 18yo at the time without a single failure, they are still more reliable than electronic shite in a marine environment. I have absolutely no reason to think flares are unreliable, where I have plenty to say electronics are or at least can be. Yes EPIRBs are built strong and water proof, just like the Titanic, Navman gear and some of my fecking hatches.

 

Like a mates superb EPIRB in his aircraft, remembering aircraft EPIRBS are fully checked by many people often where marine ones aren't check by anyone except at battery replacement time assuming the owner even realises his battery is dead, was working well according to the little light each pre-flight check. Shame is was only the little red light on the dashboard working. At his Annual it was found the thing wasn't transmitting squat. It was made by an outfit well known in the marine game as well. Aircraft and Marine ones are the same thing except aircraft ones are built (housed??) to withstand high G impacts.

 

If you go blind you know your flare worked, and you used it a bit wrong. Does the little red 1 second test light on your EPIRP mean it's actually transmitting???? I just checked the 2 EPIRPs on my boat pre-Simrad and the little light goes but will they actually transmit anything if we fire them up, will anyone know if they don't or will the MSA report just read 'Crew failure - the EPIRPs were never activated'?

 

There is the big ship about to mow you down one night. Do you turn on your EPIRP or pop a flare in an attempt to stay alive?

 

You're out the back by the Poor Knights in a Coastal Classic when your dipshit crew drops a full rum bottle and it punches a hole in your hull, you're now sinking. Do you turn on your EPIRP for the other boats in the vicinity to see or do you pop a flare?

 

It's blowing and raining 40,000 bastards when your 1/2 way back from White Island. The dipshit brother of the crew who dropped the rum bottle (who was left aboard too drown) finds slippery fingers is hereditary and does the same thing. You're now sinking and transfer to your ding, assuming you can untie it off the deck in time, and fire up the EPIRP. SAR central tracks you to a few 100mt radius and launches a Orion. The Orion arrives and knows you're in a, now due to drift, 1000mt radius of the initial 200mt radius spot. To narrow your exact spot down to an aircraft travelling at 100 plus knots in total sh*t visibility, do you throw your EPIRP at them or pop off a flare?

 

Or put another way - how many times have you heard someone saying or said yourself 'work you piece of total sh*t' to a pencil?

How many times have you heard that said to a electronic computer?

 

My Cat 3 Flares cost me $90 odd a year. My 406 GPS EPIRB will cost me $180, based on $900 purchase price and a life span of 5 years before battery replacement cost kicks in. Flares are expensive in comparison to just what?????

 

Disclaimer - I always carry EPIRB/s as they are another tool in the arsenal so you'd be stupid knot too but I also think flares are a far better option in most coastal situations. Don't be yet another dead squeaky arsed yachtie just because you think you're smart saving 24 cents a day on well proven reliable safety gear.

[Guest]

Oh good golly, don't I sound like a fractious school teacher in that post

 

Detention for you DR and in a all boys room. Knot giving you the pleasure of perving at those schoolies while you do your time

[Guest Dry Reach]

yeah! i would rather die by trying to live on my liferaft and get through a few wet, cold and hungry days than have massive burns from a device nobody saw and live in my liferaft with more pain than i had too!

You knew there were more choices than just those two, yes?

yeah but i liked to post for emotional effect!

 

But seriously how bloody effective are flares? especially 50 miles of shore! (when they work)

 

over a 20 year period having 3 EPIRPS on board would be cheaper than all the flares?

 

i know what i would have, having just seen one abbey sutherland rescued very easily with 1 of her 3 epirbs!

[Guest Dry Reach]

why do we need these bloody expensive and highly unreliable flares?

 

As because as unreliable as flares are, and having let off dozens over the years a few 18yo at the time without a single failure, they are still more reliable than electronic shite in a marine environment. I have absolutely no reason to think flares are unreliable, where I have plenty to say electronics are or at least can be. Yes EPIRBs are built strong and water proof, just like the Titanic, Navman gear and some of my fecking hatches.

 

Like a mates superb EPIRB in his aircraft, remembering aircraft EPIRBS are fully checked by many people often where marine ones aren't check by anyone except at battery replacement time assuming the owner even realises his battery is dead, was working well according to the little light each pre-flight check. Shame is was only the little red light on the dashboard working. At his Annual it was found the thing wasn't transmitting squat. It was made by an outfit well known in the marine game as well. Aircraft and Marine ones are the same thing except aircraft ones are built (housed??) to withstand high G impacts.

 

If you go blind you know your flare worked, and you used it a bit wrong. Does the little red 1 second test light on your EPIRP mean it's actually transmitting???? I just checked the 2 EPIRPs on my boat pre-Simrad and the little light goes but will they actually transmit anything if we fire them up, will anyone know if they don't or will the MSA report just read 'Crew failure - the EPIRPs were never activated'?

 

There is the big ship about to mow you down one night. Do you turn on your EPIRP or pop a flare in an attempt to stay alive?

 

You're out the back by the Poor Knights in a Coastal Classic when your dipshit crew drops a full rum bottle and it punches a hole in your hull, you're now sinking. Do you turn on your EPIRP for the other boats in the vicinity to see or do you pop a flare?

 

It's blowing and raining 40,000 bastards when your 1/2 way back from White Island. The dipshit brother of the crew who dropped the rum bottle (who was left aboard too drown) finds slippery fingers is hereditary and does the same thing. You're now sinking and transfer to your ding, assuming you can untie it off the deck in time, and fire up the EPIRP. SAR central tracks you to a few 100mt radius and launches a Orion. The Orion arrives and knows you're in a, now due to drift, 1000mt radius of the initial 200mt radius spot. To narrow your exact spot down to an aircraft travelling at 100 plus knots in total sh*t visibility, do you throw your EPIRP at them or pop off a flare?

 

Or put another way - how many times have you heard someone saying or said yourself 'work you piece of total sh*t' to a pencil?

How many times have you heard that said to a electronic computer?

 

My Cat 3 Flares cost me $90 odd a year. My 406 GPS EPIRB will cost me $180, based on $900 purchase price and a life span of 5 years before battery replacement cost kicks in. Flares are expensive in comparison to just what?????

 

Disclaimer - I always carry EPIRB/s as they are another tool in the arsenal so you'd be stupid knot too but I also think flares are a far better option in most coastal situations. Don't be yet another dead squeaky arsed yachtie just because you think you're smart saving 24 cents a day on well proven reliable safety gear.

 

ah let me think... oh yes VHF is the first thing you do before letting of a flare. (in most of those examples)... according to coastgaurd

 

 

easy and it gives the "potential rescuers "a location, boat name, pob, etc... and in most cases will get you resued before lighting up a flare.

 

in fact i think (from muy boatmaster course?) coastgaurd say that over 90% of recues are completed by only a mayday /panpan message via VHF, being recieved (before a flare is even lit). Mind you most of the idiots being resued only have a VHF!

 

Also most flares on boats are well past there expiry date or stored incorrectly!

 

 

Nah KM you have not convinced me with that school teachers rant.

 

c+ try harder!

[Changed 10]

I'm more qualified to rate. A+ to KM. He presented a reasoned arguement, and grammatcally correct!!!

 

Seriously though I only wanted to know where to buy. Jono answered that question. Safety at Sea by a country mile. But thanks for the entertainment anyway. I'll go for some flars just in case and if the new ones don't work perhaps the old ones will. I'll just work my way down the bucket until one goes off. If nothing else they will keep us warm and give us something to do. Hopefully I will always get to give them to someone else to use in their second life.

[Guest]

I'm more qualified to rate. A+ to KM. He presented a reasoned arguement, and grammatcally correct!!!

 

sh*t, I don't think I've been grammatically correct before and reasoned isn't a word I've heard applied to me that much And I know for a fact that's my 1st A let alone a A+. Warm fuzzies flying around the office widely now, Thanks TM Damn, now I feel guilty about that plastic bag we just.......... opps

 

Yes DR I would also go for a VHF 1st and do many other things before either flares or EPIRBs. That post was just a comparison between the 2 and in a coastal situation in some situations, as 99% of boaters would only encounter.

 

Yes flares are cheaper than EPIRB's, those are real life actual numbers in the example above. My EPIRB which is on my boat right this moment costs me twice a year as much as the flares abroad right this moment do.

 

Quite frankly someone is taking the piss with EPIRB prices and I know it's knot the retailers like Jono. He'll never retire rich selling those or even get to retire if only selling those.

[wheels 543]

Does the little red 1 second test light on your EPIRP mean it's actually transmitting???? I just checked the 2 EPIRPs on my boat pre-Simrad and the little light goes but will they actually transmit anything if we fire them up, will anyone know if they don't or will the MSA report just read 'Crew failure - the EPIRPs were never activated'?

Yeah I agree. What those EPIRB's need is some way of receiving a bounce back from a Satellite so as you know it transmitted. The little test button needs to be able to send a "this is a test" Blip to the bird and get a "yep I heard that" blip back.

At least in the older units, The Red light told you no more than that the battery has some juice in it. It doesn't event tell you if the battery is fully charged enough to allow the required 24-48hr transmit time.

Or are these new Generation EPIRB's a lot more sophisticated that that. ?

[Guest Dry Reach]

I'm more qualified to rate. A+ to KM. He presented a reasoned arguement, and grammatcally correct!!!

 

sh*t, I don't think I've been grammatically correct before and reasoned isn't a word I've heard applied to me that much And I know for a fact that's my 1st A let alone a A+. Warm fuzzies flying around the office widely now, Thanks TM Damn, now I feel guilty about that plastic bag we just.......... opps

 

Yes DR I would also go for a VHF 1st and do many other things before either flares or EPIRBs. That post was just a comparison between the 2 and in a coastal situation in some situations, as 99% of boaters would only encounter.

 

Yes flares are cheaper than EPIRB's, those are real life actual numbers in the example above. My EPIRB which is on my boat right this moment costs me twice a year as much as the flares abroad right this moment do.

 

Quite frankly someone is taking the piss with EPIRB prices and I know it's knot the retailers like Jono. He'll never retire rich selling those or even get to retire if only selling those.

 

 

I think the Epirbs themselves are low cost to make but there are some licensing fee paid to the sattelite owners that add cost?

 

Inshore... yes flares are good

 

offshore... Epirbs for africa for me.

 

ok then B+