alibaba 84 Posted February 20, 2021 Share Posted February 20, 2021 The gas on my recently acquired boat is a good one, but it is getting a bit [!] old and obviously due an upgrade. The solenoid valve is an Advance Fuel Components one, see photo, and getting one in NZ seems to be impossible. Burnsco have a shut off valve, as pictured, does anyone know whether all 12v solenoids are equivalent? or- do I have to pay over 200 to get one here from the US? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
wheels 544 Posted February 20, 2021 Share Posted February 20, 2021 Yes they work fine. They have to as they must meet a spec. If you can afford to, I suggest you get a new BEP Gas detector. This detector has a facility that once the valve is energised with 12V, which is required to initially close the valve, the unit then drops the voltage down to 9V, which is plenty to hold the valve closed. The result is far less current draw and much less heat in the coil. Heat is always the killer of Coils. If the valve you have is working fine and no leaks, I would put the money to a new detector. The valve seat is the only real wearing part. Do a leak test by closing the valve and put the out end in some water with detergent and look for bubbles. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
2flit 52 Posted February 20, 2021 Share Posted February 20, 2021 It's interesting that your fuel cut-off solenoid is before the regulator. This means that the gas control valve that is actuated by the solenoid is handling the full pressure of the liquid propane tank. The installations that I have seen look like the ones in the attached diagram where the fuel shut-off solenoid comes after the pressure regulator and the valve is handling only 11-12 WCI. I'd double check the pressure rating for the gas cut-off valve? Some/many of the gas solenoid valves are only designed for the low pressure after the regulator. The Burnsco valve uses about 1 amp, while there are other valves that draw far less, like this one: https://www.oceansafety.com/product-range/gas-detection-alarm-systems/product/gas-solenoid-valve-12v-0-3a The coils in these valves do break down over time, especially in installations were they remain actuated for long periods (i.e. with a propane space heater) Quote Link to post Share on other sites
alibaba 84 Posted February 20, 2021 Author Share Posted February 20, 2021 Thanks to both of you, I agree it seems to be more appropriate to have the valve after the regulator.I do have a very good gas detector and switch inside the boat which controls the valve. This seems to be working fine and actuating the valve OK. I think after your info. that I'll get the Burnsco valve but put it in the line after the regulator. It would be under much less pressure that way. Thanks again Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Steve Pope 255 Posted February 20, 2021 Share Posted February 20, 2021 You could just swap out the position of the existing v/v to after the regulator. If it's working fine why replace it? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
strath 4 Posted February 20, 2021 Share Posted February 20, 2021 I recently got a registerd gas fitter to replace my possibly 30year old gas line on my Farr 1020 with copper amd fit a BEP regulator and shut off valve. I also had to add another gas detector under the oven to comply. This was a very expensive excercise, however I now have a Gas Certificate, which gives me peace of mind, the last thing you what is gas explosion on your boat, and then an argument with your insurace company. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
wheels 544 Posted February 21, 2021 Share Posted February 21, 2021 DO NOT, I repeat DO NOT have the valve after the Reg. It is designed to be fitted directly to the bottle and acts in the same way the bottles own valve does. The hole in that solenoid that the gas flows through is far too small for Gas at a reduced regulated pressure. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
alibaba 84 Posted February 21, 2021 Author Share Posted February 21, 2021 Thanks Wheels, I agree, I looked at a lot of diagrams yesterday, and they all had the valve on the bottle side. Good to have a reason for it though. Its also interesting. when you look up regulations. In NZ all connections must be crimped, but the UK standards say - no crimping, all connections must have hose clips. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
marinheiro 365 Posted February 21, 2021 Share Posted February 21, 2021 22 hours ago, strath said: I recently got a registerd gas fitter to replace my possibly 30year old gas line on my Farr 1020 with copper amd fit a BEP regulator and shut off valve. I also had to add another gas detector under the oven to comply. This was a very expensive excercise, however I now have a Gas Certificate, which gives me peace of mind, the last thing you what is gas explosion on your boat, and then an argument with your insurace company. Just curious with your "I also had to add another gas detector under the oven to comply." Did the gas fitter inform you that the prevailing standard :ASNZS 5601.2 is not retrospective for existing installations, per clause 1.3. His obligation under the standard (and the regulations which recognise the standard) is to ensure the work he did, ie replacing the hose, complied with the standard, no more than that. I have raised this with my insurer and they acknowledge that there is no obligation to upgrade old boats to the current standard. This is also going on with EWOF's, people being told their old boats have to fully comply with the new standards (at a significant cost) when they do not. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Island Time 1,313 Posted February 22, 2021 Share Posted February 22, 2021 Agreed MH, it's a RORT! But it's section 1.5; 1.5 COMPLIANCE The requirements of this Standard shall be used in conjunction with, but do not take precedence over, statutory regulations that may apply in any area. Where no requirement is given, good practice shall apply. In a matter of uncertainty, advice should be sought. This Standard applies to new installations, alterations and extensions commenced after its publication date or the date of adoption by the relevant Technical Regulator. It does not apply retrospectively to existing installations, but any repairs or modifications to existing installations shall comply with the requirements of this Standard. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
marinheiro 365 Posted February 22, 2021 Share Posted February 22, 2021 1 hour ago, Island Time said: Agreed MH, it's a RORT! But it's section 1.5; 1.5 COMPLIANCE The requirements of this Standard shall be used in conjunction with, but do not take precedence over, statutory regulations that may apply in any area. Where no requirement is given, good practice shall apply. In a matter of uncertainty, advice should be sought. This Standard applies to new installations, alterations and extensions commenced after its publication date or the date of adoption by the relevant Technical Regulator. It does not apply retrospectively to existing installations, but any repairs or modifications to existing installations shall comply with the requirements of this Standard. reminds me to read the text rather than just the file name of my extract 😄 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Island Time 1,313 Posted February 22, 2021 Share Posted February 22, 2021 14 hours ago, marinheiro said: reminds me to read the text rather than just the file name of my extract 😄 OK, any idea where in the electrical regs the same statement (or similar) is made? I've been looking for it.... Quote Link to post Share on other sites
marinheiro 365 Posted February 23, 2021 Share Posted February 23, 2021 59 minutes ago, Island Time said: OK, any idea where in the electrical regs the same statement (or similar) is made? I've been looking for it.... AS 3004.2 does not include a similar statement. I have discussed this with the Electrical Inspector (Clive Cork, a fellow yachtie) who does our boats at Sandspit. He advises that it comes down to what the Electrical regulations state, and unless stated other wise the reference standard is for new instalations and not retrospective. He advised there is no retrospectivity clause for AS 3004.2. He said when he is inspecting a legacy installation he is ensuring that it is "safe" in his view. There is an anomaly between the regs and the standards, the Electrical (safety) regulations were enacted in 2010 and amended in 2013 https://www.legislation.govt.nz/regulation/public/2010/0036/latest/DLM2763501.html https://www.legislation.govt.nz/regulation/public/2013/0494/latest/DLM5806001.html They refer to As 3004.2 (2008). However since then AS 3004.2 was revised in 2014. So when inspecting a boat for an EWOF the 2008 standard applies, but a boat built on/after 2014 must comply with the latest version. Tricky huh! Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Island Time 1,313 Posted February 23, 2021 Share Posted February 23, 2021 Yes, but I knew it was somewhere. As the standard does not explicitly say it IS retrospective, it is not; http://ldac.org.nz/guidelines/legislation-guidelines-2018-edition/constitutional-issues-and-recognising-rights/chapter-4/part-7/ For those who dont want to follow the link, but are interested, here is the basic stuff. CHAPTER 4 Fundamental constitutional principles and values of New Zealand law This is a single section from Chapter 4. Read the full chapter here. PART 7 The presumption against retrospectivity Legislation should not affect existing rights and should not criminalise or punish conduct that was not punishable at the time it was committed. This presumption is part of the rule of law. The general rule is that legislation should have prospective, not retrospective, effect (Chapter 12 provides guidance on legislation that has a retrospective effect). SO, if your gas man or electrical inspector is insisting on changing something that is safe, just old, and not compliant with current regs, find another inspector! Or quote them this.... Quote Link to post Share on other sites
marinheiro 365 Posted February 23, 2021 Share Posted February 23, 2021 and just for clarity, Standards have no legal standing in their own right. To be obligatory they must be specifically referenced in legislation, either in an Act or Regulations. Otherwise they are only advisory/for reference Quote Link to post Share on other sites
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