ross 830 tuning

[830 0]

does anyone know of good headsail combinations for a non modified ross 830 and rig tentions tuning etc to make it point and go faster up wind with a standard mast rod rigging with a masthead kite modfication cheers jeremy

[Kaihe Atamai 2]

I'd be keen to hear wisdom along those lines as well! I'm sure Bruce from Bump n Grind would have an opinion - and there are a few Ross wizards out there if you ask around - Grant Jenkins comes to mind, John from The Numbers Game is clearly fast in his Ross 830.

 

Though one would have to define "point" and "fast" re: upwind. I find on my Ross 830 that the VMG is best a bit off of the highest possible point... and all is highly dependent on the headsail / wind combo at the time. There is a gap in my current set between the blade and the No1 for conditions often encountered in AKL - hence I'm looking for a "No2". Previous owner mentioned a Y88 jib works well - though I've yet to get out the tape to verify. And it would mean putting a new rail in and perhps getting rid of the self-tacker (foot remover).

[Guest]

BnG has quite a loose rig while at the dock, while sailing we get tension by grinding the runner on with the windward primary. but in saying that the rig is about 7ft bigger than a standard 830. i guess they are just like every other small ish yacht, too much tension and all you end up doing is warping the hull and decks. do standard 830s have runners or a fixed backstay?

[Guest]

I wonder how the 930 and 830 line up next to each other tuning wise? Anyone got any ideas on that?

 

I was surprised to see RB's post looking for a 88 headsail to try as I wouldn't have thought one would fit, sure can't fit one on a 930, the foot is too long and it would be marginal on the hoist I'd think. We did a measure up for the biggest amount of sail we could squeeze in there a few weeks back and I'm sure the measurements were all smaller than what a 88 has or can fit.

 

For what it's worth my rig is raked a fair way, probably 600mm odd, and the rigging is bar tight, so tight it is deforming the cabin top. We can out point, or can when we choose to, most boats quite comfortably. We have runners but rarely use them and only tweak with a masthead backstay.

[830 0]

thanks for the replies i have just bought 830 news it has a kevlar mix hull the rig is set up with no runners but an adjusting backstay the sails a pretty average #3 luff 7.75 foot 2.22 #1 old luff 7.75 foot 4.39 there is a big gap in medium winds where a#2 would be useful what sail measurements would work for a #2 having lots of fun down wind with mast head kite and a large fractional kite re cut of cu ross 8.8 we had the boat out in 40 knotts in one race in waikawa just managed to finish with out gear damage . do they all have a bulb on the keel this one does . cheers

[Island Time 1,235]

i dont know about 830 tuning specifically, but here is a good starting point for most keelboats - for 1x19 SS rigging. Rod is different.

 

15-20% breaking load on the caps, enough on the lowers to keep the mast in column when fully powered.

 

Forestay length determins rake, about 3 degs to begin with.

 

Backstay tensions forestay and depends on weather, sail cut etc.

 

You CAN NOT accurately tell stay/shroud tensions by hand. They must be measured either by stretch or with a rigging guage.

 

There is a good reference book, Sail and Rig tuning, by Ivan Dedikam (spelling??), that explains why, tensions for various rig types, and order of tensioning. Well worth the money...

[col j 0]

i dont think 830 news had a bulb when my old man had it. way back when he built the thing...before my time. fact i think he beat up on some 930s in the 830 back then too. pre turbo. then came a 930 and killed the other 930s...back when i could fit in a 930 sink...

[Murky 1]

I was surprised to see RB's post looking for a 88 headsail to try as I wouldn't have thought one would fit, sure can't fit one on a 930, the foot is too long and it would be marginal on the hoist I'd think. We did a measure up for the biggest amount of sail we could squeeze in there a few weeks back and I'm sure the measurements were all smaller than what a 88 has or can fit.

Think KM would be on the money with his comments - below are the rules/measurements for an 88 "jib" (usually referred to on the boat as a #2, "genoa" under the rules = #1).

 

For what it's worth, even if you did find that an 88 sail would fit your boat, you would still need to find one available for sale. Bizarrely - given the large number of new sails that go into the fleet each year - it seems to be extremely rare to see one advertised anywhere.

13.3 Jib

13.3.1

Construction of the jib shall comply with the following requirements:

(a) The width of the head measured at right angles to the luff including the luff tape or rope shall not exceed 150 mm.

( The length of the luff shall be 9,750 mm plus or minus 50 mm.

© The length of the leech shall be 8,850 mm plus or minus 50 mm.

(d) The length of the foot shall be 3,710 mm plus or minus 50 mm.

(e) The procedure for determining the three-quarter and half-height measurement points on the luff and leech shall be the same as for the mainsail and:

(i) The width at three-quarter height shall be 1,214 mm plus or minus 50 mm.

(ii) The width at half-height shall be 2,135mm plus or minus 50mm.

(f) The leech may be supported by a maximum of three equally spaced battens of optional length.

(g) The jib shall be secured to the forestay by hanks.

I will now exit from this Ross boat thread.

[Guest]

Looking at Murkys posted numbers I could just, and I mean just, fit a 88 headsail on according to those measurements. Playing in the 'make it by 30mm' area but should just squeeze on, maybe if we forget about the spreaders. Knot a shite show of fitting on the self-tacker and we'd have to fit tracks behind the chain plates.

 

I'd be very surprised if one would fit a 830, very very surprised.

[Murky 1]

That comment from the old owner might have been referring to the old style 88 jib, which was smaller in the foot dimension at least and generally referred to on the boats as a #3. That was replaced (both in the rules and on the boats) with the current larger jib...maybe five or six years ago.

 

Even if the size issue could be overcome, you would want to satisfy yourself that the design and construction would work for the conditions you wanted to use it in i.e. a sail built for heavier conditions on a larger boat, will not always look great in moderate conditions on a smaller boat. And vice versa, I suppose - an 88 #1 would probably not make a useful #3 on a 40-footer.

 

I know, I already said I was leaving...

[Guest]

Oh crap. Murky is a bastard.

 

Just when I thought we were about to level up the sail area to boat ratio with the 88's he tells us that's a No. 3 size. Crap, I thought it was their biggest one.

[Kaihe Atamai 2]

That comment from the old owner might have been referring to the old style 88 jib, which was smaller in the foot dimension at least and generally referred to on the boats as a #3. That was replaced (both in the rules and on the boats) with the current larger jib...maybe five or six years ago.

 

Even if the size issue could be overcome, you would want to satisfy yourself that the design and construction would work for the conditions you wanted to use it in i.e. a sail built for heavier conditions on a larger boat, will not always look great in moderate conditions on a smaller boat. And vice versa, I suppose - an 88 #1 would probably not make a useful #3 on a 40-footer.

 

I know, I already said I was leaving...

 

That's spot on - he was talking about the No3 - I wasn't aware of the change and just assigned this to the jib from the current Y88 class rules. Now I need to go get the tape out to see if it's possible even if it would make me look like a little kid in hand-me-downs! Getting an old jib is another issue... maybe just start talking to sailmakers.

 

Regarding tuning - we keep the rig at a reasonable tension (not floppy, not so that it warps the cabin noticeably) and go with runners to tension the forestay upwind. Also have a masthead backstay that's only good for making the top of the sail look like crap so far as I can tell. The original mast (or at least the one on RB) is quite bendy and the vang gets used upwind though this would depend on how your main is cut. I've noticed the vang on a certain faster stock-ish R830 has a massive purchase built in!

[830 0]

we have the same problem with the masthead backstay on 830 news the main looks horrible at the top when you have alot of back stay on upwind. do you think runners would help the rig it has a extra set of spreaders at the top to give the rig more stability they took the runners off . they added a prod on to which has a large fractional genneker which came of a boat called carbon . there is not alot of information about 830 s around tried to contact ross but didnt have any replies.

[Murky 1]

A Ross boat - any Ross boat - in the hands of Murray Ross would generally mean the rest of the fleet may as well give up and wave goodbye. In particular, he had the ability to adjust and get performance out of those tweaky rigs in ways that most of the rest of us could never expect to understand.

 

To be fair, we are talking about quarter of a century ago now and it is probably not surprising that he has moved on. Not even sure if he is still in NZ full-time.

 

On the positive side, if he was able to do it, in theory so could anyone else. I would guess that you will definitely know when you are getting it right and it could be one of those times when it is worth settling in to enjoy the journey.

 

RB, that #3 issue probably makes your mission harder still as none of those sails will have been replaced since the changeover - might be easier to just price up a sail that's designed for your boat.

[Kaihe Atamai 2]

we have the same problem with the masthead backstay on 830 news the main looks horrible at the top when you have alot of back stay on upwind. do you think runners would help the rig it has a extra set of spreaders at the top to give the rig more stability they took the runners off . they added a prod on to which has a large fractional genneker which came of a boat called carbon . there is not alot of information about 830 s around tried to contact ross but didnt have any replies.

 

I'm not a rigger so take this how you wish but I seems that the point of jumpers is to stiffen up the top of a fractional rig to make masthead gear a possibility - not to do the same for mast twist / tension at the forestay hanks. that's the role of spreaders / mast stiffness / runners. On the twisty-bendy R830 mast I have the runners are very helpful in stronger winds. Our mask used to have two insertion points for the runners (can't remember the term for this) but a previous owner took em out.

 

What we need to do is get John from The Numbers Game to take us out for a rum race... he seems to get a lot out of his boat.

 

Are you sailing 830 News out of Tauranga or Auckland or ???

[Kaihe Atamai 2]

A Ross boat - any Ross boat - in the hands of Murray Ross would generally mean the rest of the fleet may as well give up and wave goodbye. In particular, he had the ability to adjust and get performance out of those tweaky rigs in ways that most of the rest of us could never expect to understand.

 

To be fair, we are talking about quarter of a century ago now and it is probably not surprising that he has moved on. Not even sure if he is still in NZ full-time.

 

On the positive side, if he was able to do it, in theory so could anyone else. I would guess that you will definitely know when you are getting it right and it could be one of those times when it is worth settling in to enjoy the journey.

 

You give me hope - thanks.

 

RB, that #3 issue probably makes your mission harder still as none of those sails will have been replaced since the changeover - might be easier to just price up a sail that's designed for your boat.

 

Yes - still worth an ask - it would be good to see how a similar sail would sit before heading that direction. Long-term a new #2-ish sail is planned.

[830 0]

we are sailing 830 out of waikawa marlb sounds mainland as you say need to use the vang more the boat was raced by ross when it was launched and won alot against the other 830s looking at a quote build #2.5 which will carry into the lighter end of the scale yet it will handle into the #3 range with out over powering. we will see.

[eruptn 95]

I have a Ross 650 ... similar issue, there is a big gap between the overlapping headsail and the self tacker. There is possibly a sweet spot for an in between sail.

[830 0]

a message for revolution blues do you have any photos of the runner set up block sizes measurements iam putting runners back on 830 news we have just put wider spreaders on renewed the standing rigging cheers jeremy

[Guest]

Good move, it will give you lots of tuning options upwind and a bit more holding the rig up with that gennaker you mentioned downhill.

 

The Harken website or pg 23 of their catologue has lots off different options for backstay adjustment setups. If i was doing mine again I would be looking at doing it with Antal (or similar) rings to keep it simple and light.