Guest 000 Posted January 19, 2017 Share Posted January 19, 2017 Going to drydock on Monday and I have a nice new prop to put on. As I understand it, in calm water and with a clean bottom and underway, one should be able to just attain maximum engine revs at wide open throttle, this to ensure that no components of the engine and drive train are overloaded. In my case this would be 3600 rpm. So how theoretical is this? In other words am I doomed if the engine can only reach 3400? 3200? I figure that there must be a little bit of latitude with this. Secondly,if I should find that the engine can't even get close to WOT, then I will have to take the prop off again for repitching, so don't want to ladle on $100 of Propspeed. Any recommendations for a reasonable, relatively short term prop antifouling? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Black Panther 1,586 Posted January 19, 2017 Share Posted January 19, 2017 Plus your rev counter is probably lying. Mine is by heaps. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Guest 000 Posted January 19, 2017 Share Posted January 19, 2017 Checked mine out last year with on of those handheld laser tachometers. The boats rev counter is actually not too bad.. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
waikiore 399 Posted January 19, 2017 Share Posted January 19, 2017 Put MAXwax on available in a spraycan at most good chandlers - I got a year out of it, not quite propspeed but for your situation ideal. And yes you should reach maximum 3600 with all things being right - clean bottom etc etc. We require that to sign off new engines as the boats always get heavier bottom fouling etc and you dont want to put a modern small diesel into lug. Depending on the engine an older one can have a little leeway. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Fish 0 Posted January 19, 2017 Share Posted January 19, 2017 Soo, Best short term option for prop antifoul is the Corrosion X stuff, we are using it on our shaft. there is a thread around here somewhere from when I was asking those questions. You can also use MaxWax, which is basically the same. The relevant question is finding a supplier. We just re-propped with a much bigger propeller. Now we can't achieve max revs. We never did run anywhere near max revs due to noise and vibration anyway. The main reason for achieving max revs is for warranty purposes of new engines. I did a fair bit of sussing and questioning of engine suppliers (and the kiwiprop supplier) on the need for this. It all comes down to your engine. Ours is a 30 year old long stroke Izuzu that is so far out of warranty it is not funny. At the time of those engines being made, they were very conservatively rated. It's stated Hp was more than we need for hull speed, but more so, the stated torque was massive (and believed to be a conservative rating). With the big prop, we achieve much higher cruising speed at much lower rev's, which reduces noise and vibration. With our very un-complicated engine, we can tell immediately when it is being overloaded, as it blows black smoke. Throttle back a fraction and she is fine. So we use that as a measure. I believe the risk of over propping an engine is excessive wear from heat, forces on bearings etc but those only occur when the engine is overloaded, which in our case gives black smoke. It is possible to up the prop to increase cruising speed at the expense of achieving max rpm. There is a good explanation on the Kiwiprop website (I can find it if your keen). If you are fussy about your set up, I would recommend getting a digital tacho and checking your actual revs. $100 from the internet. Just noted you said you've already done though. I've got a bunch of numbers somewhere of what revs and boat speeds we can get with our different props. Short story is I'm happy with our bigger prop but can't reach max revs now. Generally cruise at 2,000 rpm doing 6.5 knots (37ft, with a hull speed of about 7.9 knts) can get up to about 7.5 ish in flat water, smokes at 2,500 rpm, max revs should have been 2,800 rpm. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Fish 0 Posted January 19, 2017 Share Posted January 19, 2017 Simultaneous posting. wow. What sort of engine do you have Chris? as Waikiore says, the older it is the more leeway you have. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Guest 000 Posted January 19, 2017 Share Posted January 19, 2017 Engine is a 3 cylinder 29hp Perkins Parama M30 driving through a mechanical PRM gearbox, 2:1 reduction. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Guest 000 Posted January 19, 2017 Share Posted January 19, 2017 A little background. I got the new prop a year ago,put it on the boat and zoomed all around the place at 6 knots at 2000rpm. I didn't know then about all this max revs at WOT business. Consequently, I destroyed the gearbox and had to shed a lot of money and tears on a new one. With that installed, I discovered that I could only reach 2500 rpm instead of 3600 rpm at WOT, and the gearbox just couldn't take the strain. The gearbox is correctly matched to the engine's HP. So I put the old prop back on and had to be content with 3.5 knots. Now I've had the new prop repitched and want to put it back on. Can't afford to wreak another gearbox, though. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Fish 0 Posted January 19, 2017 Share Posted January 19, 2017 The difference between 2500 rpm and 3600 is significant. My Izuzu's max revs was 2,800, and we can do mid 2,000's fine (2,400 I think), smoking at 2,500. I'm no expert, but I would have thought you'd want to get into the low 3,000's at least. Why did you change the prop in the first place? did you want a higher cruising speed? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Guest 000 Posted January 19, 2017 Share Posted January 19, 2017 The H28s came out originally with a 12hp Bukh which I think gave them around 5knots in flat water. With my 30hp engine I was getting around 4knots at 2000rpm with the fitted prop, whether the original or not I don't know.. I would have thought with that amount of HP driving the correct prop I should just about be able to go eater skiing behind her. From what I have read, with a WOT of 3600rpm, normal cruising rpm should be around 2800. I can make 5knots at this rpm in flat water. With the old prop I can easily get 3600rpm with no smoke so figure she is under propped, hence the new one. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
waikiore 399 Posted January 19, 2017 Share Posted January 19, 2017 yes I would be looking for 6 knots ish at 3000 and being able to get near 3600 as she sinks into her own hole going a little quicker (gives you reserve for weather conditions) Quote Link to post Share on other sites
wheels 543 Posted January 19, 2017 Share Posted January 19, 2017 OK...here is the story. A diesel engine develops Hp in relation to RPM. The only main difference between the older designs and the more modern ones, that are computer controlled injection, is that the Torque curve is different. So lets say we have a 20Hp @ 3600RPM engine. At 1500RPM, it would be closer to just 10Hp(not exactly, but close enough for the discussion). So lets say the prop has too much pitch and all the engine can rev to is 2600. That means the engine is going to develop just 14Hp. That may or may not be enough to move you about as snappily as you need to. The next issue is that the engine is still getting a command to deliver all the fuel it can into the cylinder. But not all the fuel is being burned, so you can get Black smoke issues, but even worse, you can be getting Diesel Fuel washing the sides of the bore and causing damage. Plus the Big ends are getting a hammering. The way to work out if the prop is correct is as follows. Firstly, while out of gear, open up the throttle and see what RPM the engine will make. If it is a 3600RPM engine and the Tacho reads 3600RPM, then that is great. If it only reads 3500RPM, that is not a major concern. It could be that the throttle is not set to open fully, or it could be the Tacho is not adjusted correctly. Not a major. Although it would certainly be helpful to get a hand held tester and set the engine to correct RPM with throttle open fully.Now pull the revs back and put the engine in gear and open the throttle fully again. If the engine goes to 3600RPM or exactly the same as it did out of gear, then you may well be under pitched. There is always effort spinning a prop. Even with no pitch at all, there is friction caused by the surface of the disc spinning in the water. As the pitch increase, there is more effort required to move the water. The sum of Surface Friction and movement of water equals about 10% of the effort of the engine at it's full Hp/RPM. Or if I explain that a little differently, with engine in gear and at full RPM, the engine should rev to max RPM less 10%. Or 3600, less 360 = 3240RPM. NO LOWER THAN THAT. If it is lower than 10%, then the prop is over pitched and both engine and box is going to be overloaded.You can be anywhere within the space of 3240 to say 3590. (because 3600 would be hard to tell if the engine is working or not working). I would certainly be suspicious if it makes 3600 and be looking at more pitch on the prop. This max RPM has no relationship to the RPM you want to cruise at. If you want to cruise at 1400RPM, that is no problem at all. The load is in proportion to the RPM and the engine will be happy to work at any RPM you select. But you have the power and the best prop efficiency when you need it when you open the throttle. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Guest 000 Posted January 19, 2017 Share Posted January 19, 2017 Thanks Wheels. Very succinct.☺ Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Muzza 18 Posted January 19, 2017 Share Posted January 19, 2017 Fish. With the boat being that far short of max revs on the engine I would look at a reduction gear change. I have done this on several boats first case a 23ft waterline yacht with single cylinder yanmar 1GM 10. The engine supplier suggested a 13 x 7 Briski two bladed folding prop but engine was 600 rpm short of max revs and max speed was under 6 knots. Engine was showing signs of over loading from 2800rpm. Henleys suggest that data from the boat indicated a 12 x 6 would be more appropriate for that shaft speed. I knew this was the wrong way to go so decided to changed reduction from 2.2:1 to 3.2:1 engine was now under propped so added another three inches of pitch 13 x 9 end result was max speed now 6.6 knots at WOT 3600 rpm being easily reached. With displacement boats you ideally want to keep prop shaft revolutions down to around 1000 rpm. On displacement boats a slower turning prop is always more efficient than a higher speed one. In this case propeller slip decreased from about 32% to about 22%. Henley's took the later figures and then worked out the ideal would have been a 14 x 8 however 14 inch diameter was cutting down propeller tip clearance to the hull to under 10% so the decision was made to stay with 13 inch diameter. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Fish 0 Posted January 19, 2017 Share Posted January 19, 2017 That's interesting Muzza, Our gearbox is a bit difficult to fiddle with. It's a 54 kg hydraulically actuated PRM 160 box, a fair bit different to the modern 12 kg mechanical PRM boxes. Understand the logic of having a shaft speed of about 1,000 rpm. We cruise at that, or a bit more if we open her up. How do you change the reduction ratio, get a new box? Our prop is a Kiwiprops, so it is very easy to reduce the pitch slightly. I'm not convinced I need to just yet, but I am keeping an eye on my speeds and revs to make sure. I need to check my notes on when we get the black smoke, but think it is actually fairly close to 10% of max revs. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
wheels 543 Posted January 19, 2017 Share Posted January 19, 2017 Yep a new box. So it is not fr the faint hearted.I have never heard anyone say the 1000RPM thing before. Interesting. I will keep that in my mind. It does make perfect sense. The faster you want to spin a prop, the more resistance there becomes due to water resistance on it's surface. Hence why you don't see 4 bladed props on high speed race boats. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Fish 0 Posted January 19, 2017 Share Posted January 19, 2017 Fish, sounds like a slight de-pitching is all you need. I'm going to have another look at my numbers. De-pitching is as easy as adjusting three allen screws for us. Strangely we haven't actually used the boat that much since putting the bigger prop on. Something about it still being spring, and wanting to wait until summer before taking the kids out a lot.... We have done the full job on sound proofing, and replaced and upgraded the engine mounts to good cushy-floats - that made a massive difference. We also put a silencer on the air intake - that made a massive difference too. Took out the deep base-note boom boom. For a 30 year old long stroke engine that is twice as heavy as the modern equivalents, it is going really well. I'm not convinced we've got the alignment right on the drive train yet, but that is getting toward the too hard basket and its much easier to just go sailing. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Fish 0 Posted January 19, 2017 Share Posted January 19, 2017 Chris, out of interest, what size props are you going from and to? The various calculators suggest the hull speed for the H28 is 6.4 knots, and you should need 22.5 Hp to do it, so it does sound like your original prop is under done, and your new prop is over-done. I find this stuff fascinating (maybe I need to get out more). Will be interested to hear how you go with the re-pitched prop. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Muzza 18 Posted January 19, 2017 Share Posted January 19, 2017 Changing the reduction gear often doesn't mean a new box it just means changing components in the existing gearbox. As rotation speed of the prop goes up so does propeller slip. Take rotation speed x pitch in inches and you can work out a speed with no slip then find your actual speed through the water and that will tell you how much the percentage of slip there is. If diameter gets compromised a solution might be to move from two blade to three blade feathering to increase blade area and load engine up more. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
erice 732 Posted January 19, 2017 Share Posted January 19, 2017 online prop calculators can be useful for checking if props are matched well to boat + engine if you've got all the numbers https://www.vicprop.com/displacement_size.php a more techie spreadsheet calculator downloadable here http://www.marineengine.com/boat-forum/showthread.php?291976-Internet-prop-calculator Quote Link to post Share on other sites
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