The Last Time Safety Gear Was Used?

[ScottiE 174]

you won't be racing a CC in anything like 100kts IT I can assure you.  In fact the last time we had half a blow we delayed the start by 2 hours, to good effect.  I think that had a prediction of gusts to 50kts IIRC.

[Fish 0]

Well we aren't being inundated with accounts of people taking to life rafts or dinghies here are we.

[Ed 143]

No, but we are basically saying that what's in the cat 3 regulations is generally considered appropriate today for a responsible skipper doing coastal sailing in the gulf.

 

Sure there are a few minor oddities, but nothing significant that you can point to as an active barrier to racing.

[Jon 360]

If you draw a line from the happy jacks to L barrier then on to C Rodney YNZ will let you run a race Cat 4

CC is Cat 3 as it goes around two Capes

 

We (SSANZ) have been working hard to either lower category rating or run races in areas that we can get away with lower category's

 

As for paper charts we have all but allowed yachts to not have then in the RNI as long as you have multi devices and multi forms of power

 

I'm picking in 3 years the next RNI will be all electronic if you wish to go that way

 

But it's really hard to argue against safety gear and it makes the organisers more liable if something goes wrong and we have removed something that was a requirement

[Fish 0]

 

Sure there are a few minor oddities, but nothing significant that you can point to as an active barrier to racing.

Accept the cost of servicing or replacing my liferaft is a barrier to me going racing.

 

And what we are finding is no-one ever uses a liferaft. i.e. they are of no benefit. If no one is using them, they aren't reducing any risk or providing any benefit. This in the context of within the Huaraki Gulf and up to the BoI.

 

We know people use PLB's / EPIRB's regularly. We know people use VHF's regularly. the benefit of those are clearly demonstrable.

We know motorcyclists reguraly get a benefit of a helmet, every time they fall off.

 

The parallel to a life raft, that can be considered an 'escape pod' from a yacht, is a parachute for a light aircraft. Sure back in the 1930's and 1940's it was standard for aviators carry parachutes. Last time I went up in a light aircraft there were no parachutes. (Interestingly there was lifejackets though). Parachutes aren't required in the modern setting because they don't provide a benefit. I argue the same applies to life rafts.

[ScottiE 174]

Fish - you are missing the point - you don't actually need a liferaft for Cat 3.  You just need a dinghy - presumably if you cruise you have one of those?

[Fish 0]

Yeah, nah, don't think I am missing the point. There are two aspects to the thread, the main aspect - is there any actual benefit from liferafts / dinghies. The second aspect, that you are focusing on, is what is the cheapest way to meet the current safety requirement.

 

I have read the rules on dinghies / inflatable dinghies etc. Our 'cruising' dinghy is too big to fit anywhere on deck fully inflated. We either tow it or deflate it. to comply with the rule I need to get a new dinghy. Sure I'm looking into that, but the question remains, what is the benefit carrying it (from a safety perspective).

 

I will probably go down the path of getting a dinghy for the purposes of meeting this requirement.

Question though, the rules around "automatically inflating dinghies" under 17.12 of part 2 of the regs. What fits that definition?

Could you take a liferaft and remove all the SOLAS stuff inside, being the flares, rations etc, label it a 'automatically inflating dinghy' and comply with the rules? I'm not trying out-rightly to cut corners, but its replacing most of the stuff in the liferaft that adds significantly to the servicing cost. It would need to be clearly labelled as not being a liferaft to avoid any confusion.

Otherwise, what examples are there of a self-inflating dinghy?

[Deep Purple 511]

I don't have any complaint about Cat3 equipment although I accept some would see it as overkill.

 

I do have issues with the lower categories 4 and 5. I can't officially enter my Dragon in a rum race on the inner harbour because

 

1 The cockpit is required to be self draining

2 It needs a toilet or fitted bucket

3 It needs bunks with lee cloths

4 It needs 1.37m Headroom

5 It needs 2 fire extinguishers totalling 4kg

6 It needs a lifebuoy with a light

7 It needs a 25 toe-rail forward of the mast

8 Flares

9 Two Flashlights with spare batteries and bulbs

10 Charts and plotting equipment

11 Depth sounder

12 Permanent nav lights

13 Foghorn

 

Most of that stuff I have but I consider none of it necessary to sail an hour rum race in sheltered waters.

[Fish 0]

 

I do have issues with the lower categories 4 and 5. I can't officially enter my Dragon in a rum race on the inner harbour because

 

1 The cockpit is required to be self draining

2 It needs a toilet or fitted bucket

3 It needs bunks with lee cloths

4 It needs 1.37m Headroom

5 It needs 2 fire extinguishers totalling 4kg

6 It needs a lifebuoy with a light

7 It needs a 25 toe-rail forward of the mast

8 Flares

9 Two Flashlights with spare batteries and bulbs

10 Charts and plotting equipment

11 Depth sounder

12 Permanent nav lights

13 Foghorn

 

Most of that stuff I have but I consider none of it necessary to sail an hour rum race in sheltered waters.

That is exactly what I'm talking about.

Stuff that is required for a particular category rating, but simply isn't needed for the location and duration the boat is being used in.

[Island Time 1,235]

I don't have any complaint about Cat3 equipment although I accept some would see it as overkill.

 

I do have issues with the lower categories 4 and 5. I can't officially enter my Dragon in a rum race on the inner harbour because

 

1 The cockpit is required to be self draining

2 It needs a toilet or fitted bucket

3 It needs bunks with lee cloths

4 It needs 1.37m Headroom

5 It needs 2 fire extinguishers totalling 4kg

6 It needs a lifebuoy with a light

7 It needs a 25 toe-rail forward of the mast

8 Flares

9 Two Flashlights with spare batteries and bulbs

10 Charts and plotting equipment

11 Depth sounder

12 Permanent nav lights

13 Foghorn

 

Most of that stuff I have but I consider none of it necessary to sail an hour rum race in sheltered waters.

Now that, SD, I agree is just stupid.

[DrWatson 375]

... In fact for the last few years every yacht in NZ, bar a tiny handful, did not and could not comply with the Safety Regs.

 

so...honest question,  enlighten us? please?

[John B 106]

Closest to needing a raft would have been a couple of multi flips in the last 10 years or so but I'm fairly sure in all those cases people stayed with the upturned hull.

I'd look at it another way though.  IMO, once the wind is peaking over about 50kts or so, things, often exciting and unpredictable start to happen.  There are a couple of examples of broken rudders causing sufficient damage to drive people to rafts, though typically not so fast that a rescue boat wouldn't pick them up first in a coastal event.

Once you're in conditions of peaks over the 50-ish knots then I think a raft starts to be pretty reasonable as a requirement.  Me though, I just don't think a CC or whatever is so important that I need to go out when those sorts of conditions are expected and it's been a whole long time since 50kts has arrived when less than 40 was forecast.

What I can't be convinced on is cat 3 requiring a whole heap of things related to safety when keelers are rolled.  Other than loss of keel, getting rolled just isn't a happening thing in a cat 3 event for the majority of boats.

Did the crew of Chayah go to a raft when she got in trouble off Waiheke or did they go straight to shore?

I wasn't there but at the time I got the impression they were just blown up high and dry on the point  and that the boat remained dry inside despite being wrecked. All her gear went into Relapse, the Young Rocket 50.

[ScottiE 174]

You manufacture 500gr plywood anchors?  - what's your recommendation for using these!?!

[Ed 143]

do they come with lightweight floating plastic chain as well?

[zk-cessnaguy 1]

 

 

Choice, that's my swat done for the night. I have a Air Law exam on Monday

 

Hope that went well, PPL or CPL?

[Fish 0]

Most of the safety regs are common sense and sailing around the gulf in a pleasant afternoon breeze in summer is quite different to expecting a fast moving front blowing 60 in Cook Straight, you'll want your safety gear then!

 

 

Life rafts seem to be the same, last time I got mine serviced, 4 man zodiac, it cost $1400! What did they do, well they blew it up for a few days, replaced the inflating canister, refreshed the provisions blew the whistle and probably chucked in some overpriced flares. Wander into the safety section of the chandlers or any safety shop and youll see what I mean.

 

So do you feel the $1,400 service for your raft is justified by the benefit to your safety?

Given no one has come up with any examples of using a raft, I can't see what the benefit is of the $1,400.

Especially in the context of sailing around the gulf.

I believe the reason no one has used a raft (or dinghy) in anger now is the advances in communications, positional awareness and reporting, and the more reliable performance of key things such as engines, VHF's and availability of weather forecasting. Not to mention the plethora of Coastguard boats around the Gulf (they are known to race each other to incidents now).

We don't have to use lead lines and hand bearing compasses for triangulation of position any more. Most people have chart plotter and GPS function on their phones in addition to large display chart plotters on board, and infact most crew probably have the same on their phones these days to double check the skipper. 

 

The chances of navigational screw ups are reduced from years gone by. I'd believe reliability of the boat and gear has improved over time also, in addition to the ability to communicate an issue and confirm were you are, most often by the push of a single button.

[Fish 0]

 

Not too sure I'd fully agree with the navigational bit, there still are many 100% stupid simple Nav fails related crashes that shouldn't be happening, but the weather and communications improvements and options these days has to have negated the need for some safety items.

I'm thinking of the context of navigation before GPS and chart plotters. GPS was one big step forward, and I'm sure IT will chime in here with stories of GPS assisted groundings etc, but with chart plotters and MFD's so readily available and 'economic' now, the accessibility to full nav information at your fingertips, right when you need it, has taken a major leap forward. I'm thinking end of a passage, dark, hungry, trying to get into the bay for a mooring, feeling a bit seasick - now you don't have to nip downstairs to study a paper chart, just tap the chartplotter in the cockpit or at the wheel (or pull your smart phone out of your pocket) and hay presto, full positional awareness and location of hazards etc.

 

Certainly there are still navigational mistakes, fully agree with that, but overall things have improved considerably. 

Why I'm banging on about it though is to do with your last comment. I'm not seeing the reduction in mandatory safety items. There are other examples of things that are just out of date. Liferaft or grab bag needs a signalling mirror. WTF for? doing make-up? I've got a rusty old mirror in the grab bag. Cylume sticks, incase you want to rav... 

[harrytom 642]

At pybc river racing thursday night/sunday cat 5ish sharp knife bucket l/j about it

now a fog horn i find a waste of time in any cat,dense fog hard to tell direction or proximity

10 yacht horning away at 1 minute intervals?yeah right that would safe(lol)

[DrWatson 375]

Given that I can buy a new, european made, 6 man raft for 2185 euro (~3200 nzd)

 

or a 4 person plastimo transocean for 1799.00 euro. 

 

 

I'd say that 1400 for a service is taking the piss...