Running costs contributions from Crew

[Guest]

Obviously all of this depends totally on your program, I'm talking more about the big races and regattas not midweek stuff.

 

Just another perspective KM that's all.

Sorry I dropped a 'all' in that shouldn't have been there screwing the meaning a little and then went from the big longer stuff into harbour racing. I agree with you that paying crew in some cases is almost a must do for a few reasons including those you mentioned. I've been paid on multiple occasions myself. In the late 80's I was getting $1500 a week, their call knot mine. But in that specific case it did change my (our) sailing to win because we liked doing that to one of having to sail to win as that is what we were getting paid to do. It did have a negative impact in some ways. But I've been paid plenty of other times and that didn't happen.

 

If you pay someone to crew on your boat in NZ, even as much as one Chocolate fish, you become a commercial operation and then have to comply with the MZN Regs for sure, along with others like the Employment Act etc I'd expect. Same in aviation, if someone gives me a choco fish I'm then regarded as a commercial pilot. Same with diving, give your mate a choco fish to recover your anchor and he suddenly becomes a commercial diver with the stuff that comes with being one of those. But as Grant mentioned there is a provision for 'cost sharing' amongst all aboard in which case you're fine. But as we all can see those rules aren't enforced generally, in maritime at least, unless you make an obvious habit of it and piss someone off bringing it to bureaucracies attention.

[Guest]

As a boat owner, I've run all systems. I've paid all the bills, I've said I need a few bucks for us to go to a specific regatta, we've had a crew kitty, and currently it is we provide boat, and Crew bring beer and chips.

As long as it is transparent, all are fair depending on circumstances.

[B00B00 310]

I really dont think there is any right or wrong answer to this one as each case (boat/regatta/series/crew/owner..) can be so very different.

 

The point of liability ect is actually quite interesting, I wonder what the cross over point is, so say you have a rigger tune your rig. He does what he can at the dock but then needs to go out sailing to finish it off, that sailing happens to be a race, the guy is paid, same goes with sailmakers, instrument guys, engineers and probably many more.

I just wonder how it works?

[Guest]

I'd expect, using Booboo as an example, that if he comes for a yacht on my boat to check the sails I ordered from him, he is still employed and paid directly by the Loft, so employment issues and so on are the lofts knot the boat owners. Me, being the boat owner, will be paying the loft knot Booboo directly so I'm knot paying him to be a crew member I'm paying him to make sure the product I ordered is fit for purpose. As I ordered sails I want to race with, Booboo coming on the boat for a race or 3 is only part of that product checking.

 

The fact we both knew the sails were fine as we left the marina and I tapped his crewing skill stupid on the race track would be damn hard to argue in court I'd think.... as long as we both shut the f*ck up and ran with the 'he was only testing product' line.

 

So if you want Booboo as crew and don't want to put your boat into MNZ survey just buy a set of sails from him and you should be all good to go. But stock the rum locker, I hear looking up all day is very thirsty work

 

Same would apply to other trades as well I'd expect. If you say had Steve A or Grunta J riggers aboard the same would still apply. Even though both are generally one man outfits the boat owner would be paying them in their professional riggers capacity rather than crewing capacity and in doing so liability would shift to the company structure each uses.

 

That's my take on it. There probably is some obscure rule saying the above is wrong but you'd have to be a right w^&#$@r to ping someone out there doing their 'day job' rather than being paid directly for their crewing skills.

 

An interesting question. Bit like the one that says the young fella here who won't go near water as all sharks are out to get him, is regarded as a pro-sailor as he makes stuff that can make boats go faster. Or have they finally found common sense and changed that utter rubbish?

[grant 40]

I haven't had a really good read of the Maritime Transport act lately, but my recollection is that the whole "hire & reward"and "non private ownership" thing relating to SSM relates to paying for use of the boat, NOT paying the crew.

 

If the owner is paying crew I can't see that makes the boat commercial, might make it a place of employment and who knows what DOL/OSH would make of that but all the maritime stuff is about money flowing in the other direction, probably all a bit academic to this discussion anyway...

[Guest]

most boats I've raced on a contribution of beer/wine/food/labor is good form, never been asked for a "crew contribution"per race or series with regard to wednesday warriors type stuff, can understand an owner sitting the crew down for a chat if its an offshore jaunt as the costs with regard to cat 1 quickly add up, one "boatrule" I see as almost mandatory is if you loose a winch handle then you buy the replacement

[Guest]

Just going back to the original post - some racing is only possible with the contribution of crew for most owners -i.e offshore racing. For the rest I run my boat with a "contribute as you can and want " philosophy. Everyone is good at something its great to get a contribution along those lines. In what form it is shared is really up to the individual but clearly does not necessarily have to involve $$. I do not really care about people who don't contribute much else but their presence - no matter if that is as crew or elsewhere in my life.

Everyone shares something and consequently we can go racing as a team.

[Guest]

Here is a voice from the past. Many of my crew members stayed with me over several boats. As we built the boats many of them spent the winter weekends helping. Some were unskilled labour some not. We all contributed to tucker etc. on ocean races, some were subsidised by me if for instance they flew to Australia for a race. Now as an old codger who has stuck to the same boat for a number of years I have been forced to ask the crew to give us a weekend between summer and winter programs to sand and paint the bottom. We are now just local racers.

[k88 7]

As everyone said, guess it depending on what kind of racing. As an owner who mainly do club racing and aim is to have max fun, all my core crews contribute in some ways, not so much financially, but with effort and they are much appreciated.

Its very easy for me, as I mainly do no extras and short handed (getting more & more popular), so only need a small core of crews, I really have no time for crews with egos or those who think that they are "hot shot" or those who does not contribute anything at all. they normally do not get invited back, no problems for me, their loss...

So for crews, especially in NZ club racing scene, realistically I dont think there are too many owners going to pay $$ for crew to go sailing, so dont give up your day job just yet, and for those crews are wondering why they dont get call out again...start asking yourself why...

[Guest]

We all pitch in for away races. Each race the entry is split between all people on board and the life raft cost's are spread out over the year. But thats about it. Of coarse there is always the drinks and food.

Most boats I sail on are just happy to have someone that will go forward of the mast

[smithy09 50]

it was my responsibility to pack the kites and check for wear and to flake the headsails and check for condition/wear.

 

Why was I packing our kite on the Marshall then?? Well hidden talents Grinna!

[El Toro 97]

My crew just gave me 800 for the summer, which was a very nice suprise.... however the're not dumb... the court session for the season hasnt been yet, one only needs to guess who'll be picking up the tab!

[Kiteroa 8]

I've always been very lucky with my crew. No money changes hands, but everyone is quite useful and skilled, whether it's electronics, sail making, fabrication, composites or machining. I think between the 6 on my crew, there isn't much they couldn't produce for a race boat.

[Guest]

I agree with the posts here. I don't own a boat, but I get to use one like it is my own. I used to wonder why many boat owners were such cynical old bastards. Over time I've worked it out for myself.

 

Crew shouldn't have to pay towards the boat but they can:

 

1. Be committed. Once an owner has stumped up for a boat and all the gear show your appreciation by turning up and being reliable. I do crew HR and spend an inordinate amount of time finding crew. If I had $1 for every person who said "I'd like to come sailing" and then, when offered, can't I would be retired at age 40. You can't do the Fiji or Hobart race unless you can commit to everything else (and those who are exempted from this will have put in the hard yards before you were there).

 

2. Treat the boat like your own. Look after the gear - flake sails carefully and don't trash them when they're stowed. Many, many crew seem to have no idea how much things cost or there's no way they'd treat it like they do. Put sh*t away as well.

 

3. Do the Deliveries. The boat won't mysteriously get itself back from Fiji, Hobart or Tauranga. The most stressful part of doing long races for boat owners is getting it back afterwards in one piece.

 

4. Be understanding. It isn't always a piece of piss on crowded start lines or at mark roundings. If you're one of those crew who are always convinced you could do better you may be part of the problem as far as the owner's concerned.

 

5. Say Thanks. After a long day on the water, whether it went well or badly saying thank you always goes down well. At the end of a season buy a gift from the crew to say thanks.

 

6. Help prepare the boat. Safety inspections, rig checks, engine services, radio checks, bottom cleans, life raft services, PFD services, First Aid Kit replenishment, flare replacement, etc., etc. can take more than a working week every year - heaps more if you are doing serious offshore racing. When you go offshore all that kit isn't assembled onboard by oompa loompas in the dead of the night. Ask how you can help. The uninitated would be blown away to know how much this costs and the time involved. You'd also be pretty surprised how much f**king paperwork there is to be done for races, etc.

 

7. Pay for food and grog.

 

8. Help with less experienced crew. Instead of behaving like a prima donna and being a c**t to young or inexperienced crew try being helpful by offloading some of your awesome sailing knowledge to them. You were one of those people once.

 

9. If you are going to incurr expenses on behalf of a boat owner, arrange in advance what they are and who's paying for what.

 

10. Be understanding (2). Sometimes the only person not having fun is the boat owner. Realise that racing in fresh breezes or doing big races offshore is stressful for an owner because they are responsible for the lives of their crew and they've invested a massive chunk of their net worth into the boat you are "sending" in rough conditions.

[Scubash 0]

I agree with the posts here. I don't own a boat, but I get to use one like it is my own. I used to wonder why many boat owners were such cynical old bastards. Over time I've worked it out for myself.

 

Crew shouldn't have to pay towards the boat but they can:

 

1. Be committed. Once an owner has stumped up for a boat and all the gear show your appreciation by turning up and being reliable. I do crew HR and spend an inordinate amount of time finding crew. If I had $1 for every person who said "I'd like to come sailing" and then, when offered, can't I would be retired at age 40. You can't do the Fiji or Hobart race unless you can commit to everything else (and those who are exempted from this will have put in the hard yards before you were there).

 

2. Treat the boat like your own. Look after the gear - flake sails carefully and don't trash them when they're stowed. Many, many crew seem to have no idea how much things cost or there's no way they'd treat it like they do. Put sh*t away as well.

 

3. Do the Deliveries. The boat won't mysteriously get itself back from Fiji, Hobart or Tauranga. The most stressful part of doing long races for boat owners is getting it back afterwards in one piece.

 

4. Be understanding. It isn't always a piece of piss on crowded start lines or at mark roundings. If you're one of those crew who are always convinced you could do better you may be part of the problem as far as the owner's concerned.

 

5. Say Thanks. After a long day on the water, whether it went well or badly saying thank you always goes down well. At the end of a season buy a gift from the crew to say thanks.

 

6. Help prepare the boat. Safety inspections, rig checks, engine services, radio checks, bottom cleans, life raft services, PFD services, First Aid Kit replenishment, flare replacement, etc., etc. can take more than a working week every year - heaps more if you are doing serious offshore racing. When you go offshore all that kit isn't assembled onboard by oompa loompas in the dead of the night. Ask how you can help. The uninitated would be blown away to know how much this costs and the time involved. You'd also be pretty surprised how much f**king paperwork there is to be done for races, etc.

 

7. Pay for food and grog.

 

8. Help with less experienced crew. Instead of behaving like a prima donna and being a c**t to young or inexperienced crew try being helpful by offloading some of your awesome sailing knowledge to them. You were one of those people once.

 

9. If you are going to incurr expenses on behalf of a boat owner, arrange in advance what they are and who's paying for what.

 

10. Be understanding (2). Sometimes the only person not having fun is the boat owner. Realise that racing in fresh breezes or doing big races offshore is stressful for an owner because they are responsible for the lives of their crew and they've invested a massive chunk of their net worth into the boat you are "sending" in rough conditions.

 

I totally agree!

[Kiteroa 8]

I agree with the posts here. I don't own a boat, but I get to use one like it is my own. I used to wonder why many boat owners were such cynical old bastards. Over time I've worked it out for myself.

 

Crew shouldn't have to pay towards the boat but they can:

 

1. Be committed. Once an owner has stumped up for a boat and all the gear show your appreciation by turning up and being reliable. I do crew HR and spend an inordinate amount of time finding crew. If I had $1 for every person who said "I'd like to come sailing" and then, when offered, can't I would be retired at age 40. You can't do the Fiji or Hobart race unless you can commit to everything else (and those who are exempted from this will have put in the hard yards before you were there).

 

2. Treat the boat like your own. Look after the gear - flake sails carefully and don't trash them when they're stowed. Many, many crew seem to have no idea how much things cost or there's no way they'd treat it like they do. Put sh*t away as well.

 

3. Do the Deliveries. The boat won't mysteriously get itself back from Fiji, Hobart or Tauranga. The most stressful part of doing long races for boat owners is getting it back afterwards in one piece.

 

4. Be understanding. It isn't always a piece of piss on crowded start lines or at mark roundings. If you're one of those crew who are always convinced you could do better you may be part of the problem as far as the owner's concerned.

 

5. Say Thanks. After a long day on the water, whether it went well or badly saying thank you always goes down well. At the end of a season buy a gift from the crew to say thanks.

 

6. Help prepare the boat. Safety inspections, rig checks, engine services, radio checks, bottom cleans, life raft services, PFD services, First Aid Kit replenishment, flare replacement, etc., etc. can take more than a working week every year - heaps more if you are doing serious offshore racing. When you go offshore all that kit isn't assembled onboard by oompa loompas in the dead of the night. Ask how you can help. The uninitated would be blown away to know how much this costs and the time involved. You'd also be pretty surprised how much f**king paperwork there is to be done for races, etc.

 

7. Pay for food and grog.

 

8. Help with less experienced crew. Instead of behaving like a prima donna and being a c**t to young or inexperienced crew try being helpful by offloading some of your awesome sailing knowledge to them. You were one of those people once.

 

9. If you are going to incurr expenses on behalf of a boat owner, arrange in advance what they are and who's paying for what.

 

10. Be understanding (2). Sometimes the only person not having fun is the boat owner. Realise that racing in fresh breezes or doing big races offshore is stressful for an owner because they are responsible for the lives of their crew and they've invested a massive chunk of their net worth into the boat you are "sending" in rough conditions.

 

Think I might print and laminate that for a place on the main bulkhead!

[Jon 360]

I can see why you get to sail on lots of boats Hewy.

[PaulR 3]

VERY Good Summary. Well done.

 

I agree with them all.

 

A few other minor suggestions, especially for potential regular crew.

 

READ THE EQUIPMENT MANUALS.

Often one can download a copy for free from suppliers' web sites.

Their FAQ pages can have hidden gems of knowledge.

 

STUDY.

Doing different courses starting with Night School or Coastguard Day skipper / Boatmasters and moving upwards, First Aid Certificates, Radio Operators, Sea Survival etc.

Read books. There are many good ideas and emergency guides out there.

Photocopy / Cut articles and ideas out of magazines.

Study other boats for good ideas, and digital photos are easy to take, download and edit with "callouts" or notes identifying features.

 

Read the Club Handbooks, Notices of Races, Sailing Instructions, Racing Rules, Casebook. Attend rules evenings and any protests if you can. A sure way of "learning one rule at a time."

 

As one gets older, it seems that it is easier for me to admit that I now know even less than before and happier to ask questions earlier.

[Clive 13]

Think I might print and laminate that for a place on the main bulkhead!

Great post hewy!

Good idea W.T... will print 2... one for each hull!

 

prima donnas .... Pain in the arse and too busy directing everyone else to concentrate on their own position.

[Atom Ant 0]

A few seasons go we were doing the winter series on the Ant and two venerable crew.org members here were on my crew. AC and our very own Ogre (or DT as we still call him) Without fail the crew turned up each race day, early and just got going. Either the day before or early on race day AC & Ogre would get in the water with me to clean the bottom. If I remember right there were a couple of times I turned up just as they were finishing - they came down early. Just top shelf stuff. Another crew member lost a winch handle over the side of the boat and when he trned up to the next race he had a new one in his hand. I hadn't expected it, nor asked him to - he just did it.

 

I haven't had a crew as good before or since - in terms of their total commitment to keeping the boat in first class racing shape. We didn't always agree with each other but in the end we won that series.

 

Crew have moved on (or work Sundays now ) and I've been sailing pitchforks anyway. But I have a great memory of those two seasons when we were unbeatable. Teamwork commitment above all else.