Clive 13 Posted March 25, 2014 Share Posted March 25, 2014 Rules Question - Starting Box Are there any rules governing the time just after the start - 30 seconds maybe and where you can be? Specifically: We - Tigre got squeezed out at the start (boat end) for one of the regatta races by Borderline and we bailed just on the gun. All Good fun. We gybed around to follow on Borderline's heels only to find a Y88 - Perfect Alibi running the line and saying that we had no rights as we were now in their starting box - They were the next division start and our Gun was their 5 minute. Does the rule to keep out of the starting box for the next race apply? Doesn't the starting box rule apply on the 4 minute? Interestingly this was how This Way Up got T boned a few years ago at Bay Week. They were hit by a yacht running the line as they were 10/20 seconds late for the line. Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Posted March 25, 2014 Share Posted March 25, 2014 Perfect Alibi are wrong in that case Clive. In order for them to be right, all boats in the preceding division would need to be behind the line when the gun fired, and then instantly teleport to the course side of the line - even a boat with their bow 1 cm back from the line when the gun went would be violating the rule if it worked the way P.A. claim because it would take a few seconds for their hull to cross and clear the line, during which time they would be in the next division's start box. I think the "rule" (and actually it is probably not a "rule" but a provision in the sailing instructions for the event) restricts the time before which you can enter the start box, and does not restrict how long you can be in the start box AFTER that time, unless it also puts a time limit on starting e.g. you must start within 4 minutes of the start gun (commonly used). P.A. may have thought you were in a division yet to start... but they also might have been either mistaken or just trying it on. Once you are allowed into the start box, (say at start minus 5 mins, or start minus 4 mins, depending on the SIs) then you are entitled to be in there until any "you must start within x minutes of the start gun" provision runs out. After that you should clear out of the start box as soon as possible if you have not yet started. Link to post Share on other sites
Kaihe Atamai 2 Posted March 25, 2014 Share Posted March 25, 2014 SIs only say that the starting area must be avoided until your warning signal - which is the 5 min. Link to post Share on other sites
Clipper 343 Posted March 25, 2014 Share Posted March 25, 2014 Whether they were technically right or not, they were certainly being absolute (insert bad language here, I already have a warning...) Link to post Share on other sites
B00B00 310 Posted March 25, 2014 Share Posted March 25, 2014 I don’t think its their start box until the 4 min gun, they are not racing until then hence the fact you can motor up until your 4 min gun. They were pretty aggressive on the Perfect Alibi. We had a run in with them too where they got sick of us smashing them on the water and hunted us down in one pre start with hollow threats to protest. It was quite entertaining especially as we beat them by even more in that race. We got it all on film on our go pro so were hoping to go to the room. Link to post Share on other sites
Clipper 343 Posted March 25, 2014 Share Posted March 25, 2014 We wondered why weren't they racing Y88s like all the other Y88s? Link to post Share on other sites
Hurts 6 Posted March 25, 2014 Share Posted March 25, 2014 They don't have the mandatory "dacron" main so are not a class 88. I put the quotes around the "dacron" cos a lot of official "dacron" mains make some strange crackling noises these days and I'm not sure they last like they are theoretically supposed to either - I'm not sure if PA is making some sort of point or it was an oversight. Link to post Share on other sites
Clive 13 Posted March 25, 2014 Author Share Posted March 25, 2014 I think they were just being aggressive, they would have seen the 8.5 Multi's start and us bear away to miss the boat just before our gun. I must admit I was shocked at the aggression and the get out of our starting box hail from them. One of the 8.5 line pictures from another start shows them up at the boat end waiting so it looks to be SOP for them. I would estimate that we would have been about 20 seconds late for the line by the time we gybed round, came back up and found P.A. on our heading. We bore away and went in front of them. They would have passed our transom as we turned for the gybe. A good learning exercise as I'll just apply the windward leeward rule and protest. At least that way the rules can be clarified for us both. Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Posted March 25, 2014 Share Posted March 25, 2014 As Josh said, they aren't racing until the 4min gun so they had no rights. Could have been another candidate to be thrown off the dock.... Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Posted March 25, 2014 Share Posted March 25, 2014 I did wonder why PA wasn't sailing with the other '88s. now I know. Link to post Share on other sites
Clipper 343 Posted March 25, 2014 Share Posted March 25, 2014 Could have been another candidate to be thrown off the dock.... Link to post Share on other sites
Adrianp 120 Posted March 25, 2014 Share Posted March 25, 2014 What I also noticed was how many keelboats were in the area we (8.5 Multis) use for starting (but probably outside the official starting area) during our starts. Really annoying to have to factor them into your prestart tactics. I know its tricky as we all zoom out that way and then reach back in to the start, and they need to be nearby for their start, but still annoying when your trying to pick a spot to gybe/tack and you can't as there is a keelboat sitting there. Link to post Share on other sites
Kaihe Atamai 2 Posted March 25, 2014 Share Posted March 25, 2014 What I also noticed was how many keelboats were in the area we (8.5 Multis) use for starting (but probably outside the official starting area) during our starts. Really annoying to have to factor them into your prestart tactics. I know its tricky as we all zoom out that way and then reach back in to the start, and they need to be nearby for their start, but still annoying when your trying to pick a spot to gybe/tack and you can't as there is a keelboat sitting there. Makes me wonder what the definition of "starting area" is if not specified in the NOR/SIs? As crew on a keeler on the same course I can say once we got used to your strange ways we steered clear. Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Posted March 25, 2014 Share Posted March 25, 2014 I suspect that the starting area was meant to be similar to the definition given in the RNZYS general SI's which talks about 100 meters behind the start line. I will mention the absence of a definition of "start area" to Mel at the RNZYS so it can be looked at for next year. Link to post Share on other sites
Clive 13 Posted March 25, 2014 Author Share Posted March 25, 2014 As crew on a keeler on the same course I can say once we got used to your strange ways we steered clear. odd.. strange us!? Link to post Share on other sites
Marshy 30 Posted March 26, 2014 Share Posted March 26, 2014 I must admit on saturday - being the course layer and trying to set the blimen pin, how many boats just hovered sailing up and down the line... Im talking even before we have a course set or any prep signals, boats just sailing up and down the line back and forth. Makes it bloody hard to pull up marks, or dangerous when streaming them. Had one boat sail between the rib and the mark, so had to drop the mark quickly, then by the time we turned around to check it, it was like a beahive swarmed in bee's - 7 or 8 boats hanging around it. Whats wrong with hanging back 100metres from the start box until the 4minute gun goes? Link to post Share on other sites
benny14 6 Posted March 26, 2014 Share Posted March 26, 2014 I must admit on saturday - being the course layer and trying to set the blimen pin, how many boats just hovered sailing up and down the line...Im talking even before we have a course set or any prep signals, boats just sailing up and down the line back and forth. Makes it bloody hard to pull up marks, or dangerous when streaming them. Had one boat sail between the rib and the mark, so had to drop the mark quickly, then by the time we turned around to check it, it was like a beahive swarmed in bee's - 7 or 8 boats hanging around it. Whats wrong with hanging back 100metres from the start box until the 4minute gun goes? Everyone trying to "ping" the line on their Velociteks? Link to post Share on other sites
Clipper 343 Posted March 26, 2014 Share Posted March 26, 2014 trying to stay close to the start boat in case the wind dropped out and you couldn't get back? trying to figure out which end to start from? (for me it was obvious at the gun - 'the other' end) being asleep from boredom and not noticing what was going on? Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Posted March 26, 2014 Share Posted March 26, 2014 It was a bit easier for us as tiri was laying the pin and gate marks. people know to get out of her way! Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Posted March 26, 2014 Share Posted March 26, 2014 I must admit I was shocked at the aggression and the get out of our starting box hail from them. We had a racing incident where we got called. The other boat was never going to touch us, even after they when for a naughty hunt after calling. When we failed to do anything, only as we had no need to, the verbal abuse thrown was gobsmakking in it's intensity and foulness. I've heard/made many similar calls over the decades but man oh man never seen one that abusive and obscene. I'm told the skipper gets a bit heated but holy crap if that's the level some people will stoop to when having a dummy spit the sport has a serious issue. It was a shocker. That aside we had very few dramas in the start box on the big boat course, even with a few of them funny 2 wheeled things skimming around the place. Mind you I had the impression anyone annoying the PRO was going to be told..... possibly with a blunt instrument behind an ear Link to post Share on other sites
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