Osmosis warranty

[MarkMT 68]

I was looking at this trademe ad for a new Jeanneau (just idle dreaming ) and was mildly surprised to see a "five-year osmosis guarantee". I have no idea what's normal or even if there is a normal, but if I was spending that sort of money I think I'd be hoping to have confidence in the hull for rather longer than that. I'm just curious... are there any industry norms for this? What do other people think is reasonable for a brand new boat?

[grantmc 59]

Just reading the advert, in reality it is really only a 2 year warranty: Advert extract: "...the 379 hits its marks perfectly regarding safety, size, style, speed, accommodation and equipment. Add to that Jeanneau’s commendable 2-year “bumper to bumper” warranty and a five-year osmosis guarantee".

 

 

On first reading that seems to me to be a very poor warranty indeed for a new boat costing $310K. But the advert doesn't say if the vessel is new or used. If it is new then they obviously don't have much faith in their product.

 

 

Here's a couple of examples of warranties of commonly used NZ building products exposed to the weather (with supporting url links).

 

 

First is roof cladding from NZ Steel. The warranty periods range for use as roof cladding from 15 years (zincalume) to 30 years (coloursteels).

 

 

Second is weatherboard wall cladding from James Hardie (page 47 of the pdf document in the link). They commendably warranty their product as being free of factory defects for 25 years. And for 15 years as being resistant against cracking, rotting, fire and damage from termite attacks.

 

 

These manufacturers both offer products within the warranty range above that can be used in a marine environment such as a boat house or any seaside building for that matter.

 

 

Even a second hand signature class Toyota car gets a 3 year unlimited km warranty. Also, for the 3 year period, AA Roadservice and WOF checks.

 

 

Matt maybe you could invite Orake Marine to comment.

 

 

 

 

[too_tall 15]

Having seen much younger than 5 year old production boats having big repair jobs on the hull, I guess the guarantee is to add a little confidence. 5 years is very short IMO though!.

 

Just what is the difference between a warranty and a guarantee though?

 

I read once that either Bene''s or Jeanneau's are fully built in 3 weeks. If so, maybe that is half the osmosis issue?

[Island Time 1,239]

Way back - more than 15 years ago, Island Time had a full hull Osmosis repair, by Mike Menzies. IIRC it was a 10 year warranty, and now, more than 15 years later, there has not been a single issue. I'd expect the same on a new boat, at least! 

I have sent Orakei Yacht Sales an email, inviting them to comment....

[MarkMT 68]

I have sent Orakei Yacht Sales an email, inviting them to comment....

 

Excellent!

[too_tall 15]

Mike Menzies repairs are often better than the original finish on production yachts though. He actually cares about what he is doing. ( or was, being I believe he has not been doing this work for a few years now? ). 

[Steve Pope 243]

Re NZ steel warrantee on Zincalume, you have to be able to prove that you have "washed" the roof x no.of times each year you have had it if making a claim, basically makes the warrantee not worth the paper it's written on.

[grantmc 59]

Just what is the difference between a warranty and a guarantee though?

guarantee:

"a formal assurance that certain conditions will be fulfilled, especially that a product will be of a specified quality"

warranty:

"a written guarantee promising to repair or replace an article if necessary within a specified period." ...

A warranty is a type of guarantee; in the case of a product guarantee/product warranty, it's basically the same thing - the company undertakes to repair or replace your goods if they go wrong. Guarantee can also be used to express:

"I promise, this plane will fly."

"I guarantee you, this plane will fly."

warrantee:

“someone to whom a warranty is given”

 

Re NZ steel warrantee on Zincalume, you have to be able to prove that you have "washed" the roof x no.of times each year you have had it if making a claim, basically makes the warrantee not worth the paper it's written on.

Not quite correct, although I certainly concede they’re difficult to deal with, particularly so in the past. Take a look at the link I provided above. The current warranty of Zincalume for use as roof cladding is 15 years with rain washing. For other uses, ie walls, gutters etc it must be manually washed (and a record kept) at least every 3 or 6 months.

 

There are a number of conditions in the warranty pertaining to fastening. It’s also vital that when people buy the roofing products that they request and receive their warranty.

[Black Panther 1,591]

I remember a "how to run a business" course years ago where they said do not offer a guarantee unless it reads like this:

 

"If you are dissatisfied in any way we will refund your money plus 10%, no questions asked, and give you a gift voucher for a meal at XXXXXX"

 

The idea was you would make way more money by impressing people with the guarantee than you would ever loose by having to pay out. On the assumption that you were good at what you did and had a decent product.

[Black Panther 1,591]

I remember a "how to run a business" course years ago where they said do not offer a guarantee unless it reads like this:

 

"If you are dissatisfied in any way we will refund your money plus 10%, no questions asked, and give you a gift voucher for a meal at XXXXXX"

 

The idea was you would make way more money by impressing people with the guarantee than you would ever loose by having to pay out. On the assumption that you were good at what you did and had a decent product.

[too_tall 15]

guarantee:

"a formal assurance that certain conditions will be fulfilled, especially that a product will be of a specified quality"

warranty:

"a written guarantee promising to repair or replace an article if necessary within a specified period." ...

A warranty is a type of guarantee; in the case of a product guarantee/product warranty, it's basically the same thing - the company undertakes to repair or replace your goods if they go wrong. Guarantee can also be used to express:

"I promise, this plane will fly."

"I guarantee you, this plane will fly."

warrantee:

“someone to whom a warranty is given”

 

I understand that side - but I wondered where legal obligation starts and ends with either. 

From your description it would be more or less the same with both.

 

What scares me with a guarantee is that generally its a term used by used car salesmen. Or yacht brokers. And in my experience both are not much better than the used horse and snake oil salesmen they have evolved from.

[Bogan 8]

My understanding of osmosis is that it results from the weakness of the chop strand layer. CSM doesn't have any shear strength compared to a weave - only the resin stops the fibres pulling apart or moving around relative to each other. This lack of strength means that gases produced by water molecules migrating through the shell, reacting with the resin are able to blow up little blisters.

 

It's used as the first layer on production boats to stop any weave pattern showing in the gelcoat.

 

A good osmosis fix involves grinding or planing off the CSM layer and then refairing - the CSM layer isn't figured into the strength of the boat, so no need to replace it with anything other than fairing compound. Only good woven glass cloth layers left, so no osmosis.

 

Hopefully any decent boats these days aren't CSM all the way through?

 

Anyone want to correct me?

[wheels 543]

Sigh! this subject is DeJaVu. But so many have no understanding of Osmosis. And for a good reason. It is a complex Chemical process. Not all Blisters are caused by Osmosis.

       What Osmoisis is: The process is strange and defies logical understanding, untill it is explained.The proper definition is = the spontaneous net movement of solvent molecules through a semi-permeable membrane into a region of higher solute concentration, in the direction that tends to equalize the solute concentrations on the two sides.
The simple explanation is = To start the process, you need to have a void in a material. A Semi Permeable Memebrane separating the void from water.
The very first step in the process is called Hydrolysis. This is where water molecules make their way through the semi Permeable membrane into and filling the void. If that was all that took place, the only issue we would ever have is a little air pocket that has now filled with water, till it can no longer take in anymore water. No real problem apart from if there are lots of these Voids, then the Hull would weigh more. The process of Hydrolysis is slow. It can take years. Remember this, as it's important.

After a substantial amount of time, the water in the void starts to very slowly break down the Styrene in the Polyester Resin and it causes an ever decreasing Ph level by producing a Chemical called Phthalic Acid. This stuff is basically Terephthalic Acid, just that the Molecules are arranged ever so slightly. Terephthalic Acid is what Polyester is made from. As the Ph lowers, nature wants to take care of this imbalance and the process of Osmosis starts. Osmisis is where the water molecules are drawn through the semipermeable membrane to the acidic liquid on the inside, as nature wants to dilute and equal that imbalance to the Ph level of the water on the outside. It keeps doing this with absolutely no relation to physical pressure building up in the void. As time goes on, the Acidic level increases and the process of Osmosis increases and the pressure inside the void increases. The pressure can rise to unbeleivable levels. Te water molecules can not be pushed back out of the void, the void's physical pressure ends up forcing the lamiante apart and causing the surface to rise and thus the Blister to form and become visible. If left unchecked, the acidic water can be forced along the glass fibres and the area of damage increases. Eventually, the chemcal process inside the Blister starts to create Acetic.. Acetic acid has that strong vinigar odor and is what people usualy smell when they burst an Osmatic Blister.
          Please understand that the process I have descibed is even more complex than above, but there is no point going into Details that would bore everyone and it's complex enough for many "normal" people to understand anyway. SO DON'T go arguing that I have missed out some silly little detail.
For those taking notes, the Summary is, Osmosis is Slow. It takes years. Hence why real Osmosis had not seen for 20 to 30yrs after the use or a particular Polyester Resin.
Real Osmosis must have the Acidic liquid inside the Void for the process to work. If it does not, then it is not Osmosis. This is important to understand. Because if it is not true Osmosis, then it is no more than just a little void either empty or at the worst, full of fresh water.
To have an acidic liquid in the void, there must be certain chemicals present to react with the trapped water, which can then create the low Ph. If there are not, the water will remain at a neutral Ph. Another word for Fresh, but as it is not fresh as in what you would want to drink, we will use Neutral Ph as the more accurate description.
       So....Osmosis came about due to a particular Polyester Resin used way back in the 70's and very early 80's. Interestingly, GRP boats built before this Resin, never suffered from Osmosis. Boats built after this period, when the Resin was gone, also never suffered from Osmosis. That is not to say, they do not suffere from Blisters. Boats built from Epoxy, typically never suffer from Osmosis. Although in theory, it is possible, given the right circumstances. If there is a void and there is uncured Resin or hardener, then a low Ph liquid could be possible. But where Epoxy usually has the upper hand, is because Epoxy is usually a total barrier to moisture. Water should not be able to penatrate it. So if water does, then there is another problem and potentially more serious. In saying that, Osmosis in Epoxy is very very rare. Once again, that does not mean Voids can not be present in Epoxy.
Everyone got that?? It is important to understand this. A huge industry was created world wide to deal with Osmosis, when the problem never actually existed.
Blisters are and have been wrongly labled as Osmosis for years. The ONLY relation a Blister and Osmosis havr, is that they both started with the same common problem opf, someone missed rolling out an airbubble in the Resin when ot was being laid up.
I made the comment to I think ot was TooTall back when this subject got into a slinging match(no nothing to do with Too Tall), that for a brand new Hull (I think it was 3yrs old)to have Blisters, there is a much bigger and totaly different problem than Osmosis. A comment somewhere along those lines anyway.
So as i said above, a Void is a gap in the layup and it can be caused by poor workmanship, speed causing a bubble to be missed, or if Epoxy, Resin not having the hardener mixed in properly.This later can not happen with Polyester as Polyester cures by a catalytic rection. It does not need to be completely thoroughly mixed to kick it off. It will over time, harden without the use of a catalyst anyway.
So while Blisters are not always Osmosis, they are annoying and if there are lots, then most certainly very concerning in a new Hull. And of these production imports are suffering from Blisters, then they have a serious build issue that needs addressing. But it does not mean the Hull is going to dissolve and and fall apart.
I hope that helps and makes the subject a little clearer.                              
 

[harrytom 648]

"wheels' would I be right in what i have done to blisters about the size of a 20c piece.Ground back to solid glass,let dry out and fill with mixture of resin and strands,sand fair in,epifill over top,under coated then antifouled,that was 2 yrs ago no sign since or is it still going to blister? whole new world to me as mostly gop or timber hulls. 30yr old hull and had slight vinegar smell.

[Island Time 1,239]

Great Post Wheels! Thx

[too_tall 15]

Whilst wheels is correct in that the technical term for osmosis is not the generic blistering seen on hulls, but a specific type which follows a specific reaction and translocation of the liquid through a semi permeable layer created by differing concentration of solutes, normally only stopping at the point in which the solutes become balanced, although this process may take near infinite time to achieve  Osmosis has become the common word to be used for any blistering on hulls. Be this the correct term or not, it has become the common term for this issue. I guess that leads to the question of just what is covered in the guarantee?

[grantmc 59]

I had no idea that that there are different types of blisters, although I guess somewhat obvious.

 

I have a questions. My boat was NZ built 73 or 74. When I lift her out within a few hours apparent blisters show up, and as the day or days goes on more and more appear to do so. They're generally in patches together in an area mostly at the bow end

Are they actually always there but there's some sort of optical illusion going on that makes them more visible? Certainly they become very obvious with a hose down. So I sort of wondered if most appear because there's no water pressure. And I guess the big question should I care and do something about it or is really just cosmetic?

[Island Time 1,239]

Grant, It's  Raven, IIRC?

 

Ravens are solid GRP, and built like the proverbial brick outhouse. Unless huge - like 50mm , then the blisters cosmetic. I had some on my old Raven as well, there when I bought her. I had her surveyed by Rob Carpenter (who was excellent), and that was his advice.  I did remove the worst of them, and epoxied. It was never an issue. The Blisters whould have to be really deep to effect the hulls integrity! If you pop a blister, do they smell??

[grantmc 59]

Grant, It's  Raven, IIRC?

 

Ravens are solid GRP, and built like the proverbial brick outhouse. Unless huge - like 50mm , then the blisters cosmetic. I had some on my old Raven as well, there when I bought her. I had her surveyed by Rob Carpenter (who was excellent), and that was his advice.  I did remove the worst of them, and epoxied. It was never an issue. The Blisters would have to be really deep to effect the hulls integrity! If you pop a blister, do they smell??

Yep Raven 26 called Footprints. No smell and I don't recall any seepage either. They're mostly the size of a 20 cent piece.They seem to be more lumps than anything. I've had her for 12 years now and I don't think they're any worse, in either number or size than when I bought her. I've never worried about them but I have of course seen a number of people spend weeks/months getting rid of them on Ravens and other boats.