curt 1 Posted June 21, 2016 Share Posted June 21, 2016 Hey guys I'm trying the source a local manufacturer or distributor of series drogues. It seems like you can order them in from the UK or US but ideally i'd like a local manufacturer. I've been in contact with coppins sea anchors in auckland in regards to parachute anchors but cannot seem to find anyone that has ties to series drogues in New Zealand. Does the wealth of information on this forum have any ideas? Also on a side note, has anyone bought the cones from a series drogue in the packs they sell them for and self attached to 3/4 - 1 inch line before I see that as a option but ideally I wouldn't do this. Open to any ideas though. Cheers for any input in advance Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Steve Pope 243 Posted June 22, 2016 Share Posted June 22, 2016 I have one that uses normal laid nylon / polyester (not sure which), Looking at it, apart from the time taken, it wouldn't be that hard to make one. If I was ever to make a replacement I would use multi plait. If ever I have to deploy it I'm sure it will work sufficiently well enough. To date, heaving too has sufficed in any situation where continuing on has to be put on hold. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Chewing Gum 17 Posted June 23, 2016 Share Posted June 23, 2016 I bought a set of cones from the US and made up the drogue myself, no problem, just takes a bit of time. You can have have it for $1000 Suits 40fter Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Battgirl 23 Posted June 23, 2016 Share Posted June 23, 2016 Seriesdrogue.com do the cones in Australia and also give instructions for diy. A set of 100 cones for a 4500kg boat is us$500 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
John B 106 Posted June 23, 2016 Share Posted June 23, 2016 Probably showing my ignorance , but what is wrong with the Coppins drogue? and have they moved to Auckland ? I always thought they were in Nelson /Mot? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Island Time 1,239 Posted June 23, 2016 Share Posted June 23, 2016 Coppins make Para anchors - probably the best there is. Not sure they make drogues though? Could be wrong... Oh, and still at 255 High streetMotuekaNew Zealand According to their website. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
John B 106 Posted June 23, 2016 Share Posted June 23, 2016 Yes thats what I thought, it was just the OP reference to Coppins in AKL that puzzled me. You have to dig a bit on their website to find the drogue although the usual ads in the Safety regs book say 'sea anchors and drogues'. http://www.paraseaanchor.com/para-sea-anchor/high-strength-para-sea-anchors/seaclaw/ I presume these guys know what they're doing with their seaclaw, I don't know much about the series cone drogue system and why you'd want one as a preference. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Black Panther 1,591 Posted June 23, 2016 Share Posted June 23, 2016 What I like with the series drogue is that the load comes on slowly, plus you have the ability to adjust in or out for more or less load. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Island Time 1,239 Posted June 23, 2016 Share Posted June 23, 2016 I'd use a drogue in heavy conditions if my destination was downwind. Preferably the series drogue. But for a really severe blow, or really big waves, I still prefer the Coppins Parachute I have. But then people like what they know, and one mans storm is another's fresh breeze . Every skipper must decide for themselves. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Chewing Gum 17 Posted June 23, 2016 Share Posted June 23, 2016 Coppins make Para anchors - probably the best there is. Not sure they make drogues though? Could be wrong... Oh, and still at 255 High street Motueka New Zealand According to their website. What I like with the series drogue is that the load comes on slowly, plus you have the ability to adjust in or out for more or less load. I agree, the loads on the boat and the crew are way less with a series drogue. From what I have read on the subject you are far more likely to survive a major storm with the drogue. For a start most boats will hang downwind much more easily than head to wind. Just think about the difference in motion going to windward or upwind - it is huge. It is very difficult to stay head to wind with a sea anchor and most boats will end up side on to the sea. The only time a drogue is a little disadvantaged is on a lee shore as the downwind drift rate is likely to be a bit higher. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Island Time 1,239 Posted June 23, 2016 Share Posted June 23, 2016 I respectfully disagree. Heaving to is what you are doing with a parachute. Heaving to is a time honoured proven and tested way for a sailboat survive heavy weather. Some modern designs have difficulty in heaving to in extreme conditions, and require the assistance of a parachute and bridle to do so. The problem to be overcome is the dissipation of energy the boat the boat gains from the storm. If you are using a drogue, lets say a series drogue, and the boat is down to about 6 knots towing the drogue in really heavy conditions. The energy the vessel has is directly related to its mass, and its speed. The drogue can absorb a lot of energy, and as a large. steep, breaking wave comes up behind the vessel, the vessel tries to speed up as it wants to fall into the trough. If the drogue is insufficient to stop it doing that, then the energy is dissipated by the drogue. If it is not sufficient, the boat accelerates down the wave, gaining still more energy, once in the trough, it may broach (unlikely with a drogue) or the breaker can hit it from directly astern. Fill the cockpit, potentially smash the washboards and flood the vessel. If this happens, the loads on the drogue are large indeed. The key is that you are dealing with kinetic energy - it has to go somewhere.... If you are using a parachute (correctly), the boat is stationery, and at an angle to the waves (maybe 30 deg?). This angle will vary depending on the boat, the bridle, and the parachute etc. Correctly set, the boat is neither fore-reaching, nor making sternway. In the unlikely event of a breaker actually hitting the boat, before anything at all happens, the inertia of the boat must be overcome, then the resistance of the parachute, before the boat moves. This means that the kinetic energy the boat must lose is much less than if it was actually sailing. It still has mostly its length rather than beam to the sea, and the parachute will help 'pull' the boat through the breaker, almost bow first. This is the strongest and most watertight part of the vessel presented to the seas. That cannot be bad. I freely admit I have never used a drogue at sea (BP has). However, I have spent a few days on a parachute in winds up to 80 knots. The loads on the parachute warp were less, I reckon, than being anchored in 50 Knots. The warp is stretchy, has a few KG of catenary weights in the middle, and the parachute has an opening controlled by heavy bungy, that will relieve the pressure if its overloaded. Oh, and you cannot compare sailing downwind and upwind to try to understand this. Try heaving too - you might have to play with you boat to get it to do it, but it can be done - on your boat, you just have to figure out the forces acting on her, and balance them with sails and appendages. You'll be amazed how calm it suddenly seems Remember when properly hove to, you are not moving. The worst conditions I have ever heard of a yacht surviving is about 150 knots. Using a coppins stormfighter parachute. See here http://www.paraseaanchor.com/para-sea-anchor-testimonials/ and read about Charlie and his boat April. Hope I never see anything like that! Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Chewing Gum 17 Posted June 23, 2016 Share Posted June 23, 2016 Not easy to prove either way IT but the series drogue makes way more sense to me. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Island Time 1,239 Posted June 23, 2016 Share Posted June 23, 2016 That's why I said every skipper must decide their tactics and equipment. I’m not aware of ANY vessel being lost while either of these systems is properly deployed. A basic understanding of vessel stability can be read here http://www.setsail.com/evaluating-stability-and-capsize-risks-for-yachts/ I'll see if I can find the one about stability in breaking waves - including lab tests in wave pools. Interesting reading and the basis of the inertia effect on stability that I touch on above. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
curt 1 Posted June 23, 2016 Author Share Posted June 23, 2016 Thanks for all the replies guys, it sure is a topic that one can have a good yarn over and discuss the perceived pros and cons. I've never been in anything over 80 odd knots and we did well running with bare poles so didn't have to deploy anything but we did have a monster of a parachute anchor onboard rigged up ready to go incase (I was sh*t scared of putting it out truth be said). Ive managed to get a few leads from here, tracked down the guy from ozzie (as much as I would rather pay a kiwi haha) and working though some options. A lot of my decision on which one to go with were based on a USCG report where they did a direct parachute vs series drogue study It can be viewed HERE . But it must be said that no one system can ever be tested on every vessel and thus every crew has to make up their own mind on what the vessels strengths and weaknesses are. We are a centre cockpit hardened steel build so running a drogue in heavy seas is not a bad idea in my mind as this girl like many other will tack a lot on anchor and also on a cute i would guess. That is also something they found a lot in the study. Just out of interest this is what setups we have been suggested to use; if this advice helps anyone in the future googling looking to make their own. Thanks for all the advice again guys. 64000 loaded 58' steel monohull Jordan Series Drogue 175 6 oz Dacron cones, made by us in USA, very strong. Design Load Drogue 35,000 lbs,, design load bridle legs 24500 The design load for each drogue configuration is adjusted for the displacement of the yacht. The design load is the ultimate, once in a lifetime, peak transient load that would be imposed on the drogue in a “worst case” breaking wave strike. The working load during a severe storm is about 10 % of this value. Rode length 175 x 1.67 feet plus 73 feet = 365 feet. A: 175 cones supplied and attached to rode $1750. B: rode could be Nylon / polyester double braid: 120 feet 1" nylon double braid attached to 105 feet 3/4" polyester double braid attached to 140 feet half inch double braid polyester. Would be about 90 lbs, plus bridle legs, plus 25-30 lbs weight for tail end. or our Hybrid Rode: First section or two would be 12 strand Dyneema, aft 140 feet remains double braid half inch polyester. each would have an extra heavy closed stainless Suncor thimble aft to attach weight. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Island Time 1,239 Posted June 23, 2016 Share Posted June 23, 2016 Just a note on tacking while on a parachute. This ONLY happens is there is no bridle - the whole idea of the bridle is to set the vessel at an angle to the seas, so she sits still. Island Time is terrible with the parachute set directly off the bow, but sits nicely on the bridle.... And the link above only talks about drogues, not parachutes? Also, its the waves that are the issue. Some storm systems are worse than others, depending on wind speed, fetch, duration of blow, and depth. Wave shape period, size of breaking crest etc all make a difference to tactics. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
curt 1 Posted June 24, 2016 Author Share Posted June 24, 2016 And the link above only talks about drogues, not parachutes? Sorry heres the research, yeah its all about slippage they reckon, 1.5 knots through the water and then slowing down and getting your ass pulled through the wave when its breaking on ya. She's 75 pages long so have a good cuppa or two with it. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Black Panther 1,591 Posted June 24, 2016 Share Posted June 24, 2016 I found i was happier at 3-4 kn.I think on a longer boat that might pop out to 6-7. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
rossd 16 Posted June 28, 2016 Share Posted June 28, 2016 This guy has been making and selling chutes and drogues on trade me for years .I have never brought anything (other than a bosuns chair) and not sure of quality or anything but they look the gears. Ron from Coromandel . Selling under the name Threecheers. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
ex TL systems 63 Posted June 28, 2016 Share Posted June 28, 2016 This guy has been making and selling chutes and drogues on trade me for years .I have never brought anything (other than a bosuns chair) and not sure of quality or anything but they look the gears. Ron from Coromandel . Selling under the name Threecheers. I bought 1 of his chutes and it worked fine no wear after 1 nights use, however I now have a coppins one and it is a lot heavier duty construction,more expensive of course as well. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
John B 106 Posted June 28, 2016 Share Posted June 28, 2016 Back on drogues in general, The Burke seabrake unit looks interesting, anyone have experience with that? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.