Island Time 1,235 Posted January 29, 2019 Share Posted January 29, 2019 Oh, and yes, the rma process is the same, but you'd get a fwd replacement.3-4 days, not weeks. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Crazyhorse 47 Posted January 29, 2019 Share Posted January 29, 2019 So you are justifying a huge markup on the off chance the product you sell will fail? Who doesn't ring around to get a good price? They are a big well established retailer who were over 100 bucks less than All Marine and Burnsco and neither will supply a tiller pilot new off the shelf until the faulty unit is returned and inspected (I certainly wouldn't if it was me in trade!). A replacement nose cone for our silentwind 400 would be nice. The cone is suffering from UV and gone brittle, cracked (and glued). The blade hub too is slowly chipping away, little lumps falling off. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
ex TL systems 63 Posted January 29, 2019 Share Posted January 29, 2019 I got a Raymarine 2000 new from the states for around 500 nz total happy with it so far but would not go offshore without 2 of them and a wind vane possibly. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Crazyhorse 47 Posted January 29, 2019 Share Posted January 29, 2019 So..What happened to the Consumer Guarantees Act and Fair Trading Act? The "supermarkets" just ignore them? Buying from overseas is a risky business but we are talking authorised agents here in NZ. Smart Marine is an authorised agent of Navico. I must admit, got well and truly burnt by that outfit marine "deals" who did a brilliant side step by quickly changing the specs of a windlass we bought from them on their webpage after we received it and it's dimensions were wrong, not what was quoted. Didnt think at the time to get a screen grab. Ended up stuck with it as it had been installed and used (in desperation) before I worked out the capstan was way too small, now sitting on the floor in Jack Stanley's with a offers price tag. Obviously I will never buy from Marine Deals again but businesses have to expect the word will get around. We have told loads of local and overseas people on the water where and where not to go. I'm actually surprised that marine deals is still trading if they do that kind of thing. So the "supermarkets" have the buying power to get the discount and not the after sales service, I can understand that if they are not in it for the long haul but major retailers have to abide by the rules like everyone else who in the business selling products to the public. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Fish 0 Posted January 29, 2019 Share Posted January 29, 2019 How? You pay more, get the same 2 year warranty, need the same RMA from Navico when faulty. Makes no sense to pay more simply because a business wants more than the others! Where the hell is dons Emporium!!? You shop there? What KM said really. Not necessarily specific to this situation, same item, different prices. Some examples are going for bigger or higher spec'd gear so it doesn't wear out so fast (or get flogged shitless). That is very relevant to tiller pilots / auto-pilots. My general comments of wasting money paying too little are around buying cheap items from big supermarket style outfits (Bumblings springs to mind), where it lasts a year maybe. You can pay a whole lot more for the same item, but get something that lasts a lifetime, and gives reliable service while you are at it. The same comments apply to professional advice. People bitch and moan about how much Consultants charge (lets say for resource or building consents), but having a delayed building consent can cost a lot more than the cost of getting someone that knows what they are doing to sort it out in the first place. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Island Time 1,235 Posted January 29, 2019 Share Posted January 29, 2019 No, the "supermarkets" are what Navico calls "non technical resellers". They see them as stores where those who know what they want, and can install themselves with little or no support should go. Margins are the same, except sometimes for end of line products etc, where they (supermarkets) sometimes buy all thats left and offer specials. The margins on this stuff is are not what many think - standard dealer margin on Raymarine and Navico is 20%. I probably will get into trouble for posting that! This is significantly lower than many other industries, which is why it has become much more unusual to see large discounts in the last few years. So, on your tp32 for example, and using rough figures, say rrp 1500, dealer margin is $300. Its rare to get full RRP. If you have your product installed by an authorized installer, you get an additional years warranty. Both types of reseller have to - of course - comply with the consumer guarantees act, and have the same warranty chains. However, the technical dealers/installers have a personal interest in the outcomes of your purchases and systems that the supermarkets don't normally have. Therefore they are more likely to do fwd replacements etc for anything urgent, or even loan you unit if they have one. This is at least the way I work at Neptune's Gear. I'll also try to match any advertised or written quote, and usually have Navico NZ's support to match any offshore price. But that takes a few days. Perhaps that might give some of you a better insight as to the differences in local suppliers. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Crazyhorse 47 Posted January 30, 2019 Share Posted January 30, 2019 Yep very much so but have you forgotten the wind turbine? The one you sold me? You said contact Yachting NZ regarding warranty issues when it appeared the controller was not working (it was faulty) which I did and problem (then) solved with a new unit. You passed me on to your supplier which does seem to be different to how you are now talking compared to back then? Since then I have gone to to BLA the new agents with another issue and solved but now the nose cone is cracked, falling apart woukd seem the UV has eaten it and the hub that holds the blades, paint has come off and chips falling off it, go to BLA again? It's out of warranty. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Island Time 1,235 Posted January 30, 2019 Share Posted January 30, 2019 Sorry Steve, with the change of distributor for the Silientwind, I lost access to the product, sorry. I've not been able to get any sense (even a response!!) from BLA since they got the agency. I did speak with Kiwi Yachting on your behalf re the controller with the initial problem, and was asked by them to get you to call them directly. They wished to confirm the symptoms with you. The unit was replaced, and I was kept in the loop. BLA is still the agent. They will be your best option. I'd still be interested in how you get on.. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Yourmomm 2 Posted January 30, 2019 Share Posted January 30, 2019 If you're still interested in the original question, I burnt through 3 fully integrated (and bloody expensive) raymarine st series linear drives in short order, sailing in heavy weather in the english channel, in a heavy displacement long keel wooden boat, which was built like a tank, and weighed a bit more. Finally learnt my lesson, and replaced with pelagic. No problems from thereon in. Well, no problems until the boat sunk on its moorings after a nasty electrical fire. But the pelagic STILL worked, even after this! Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Crazyhorse 47 Posted January 30, 2019 Share Posted January 30, 2019 What is an ST series Raymarine linear drive? Googling it it comes up with type 1 or type 2, which I have one. No ST? The ST's are raymarine's sad attempt at tiller pilots. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Yourmomm 2 Posted January 30, 2019 Share Posted January 30, 2019 Sorry tiller drive, not linear drive. This was the strongest of the raymarine drives I had (secondhand, mind you): https://hudsonmarine.co.uk/products/raymarine-st4000-grand-prix-tiller-drive-w086 It was pants. Notice the price. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Crazyhorse 47 Posted January 30, 2019 Share Posted January 30, 2019 Better "pants" than just Y fronts! Wasn't going to wade through the manual but the separate drive I think is only "seatalk". You need the AP controller to operate it and that uses N2K. Typical "gaymarine". The trouble we had with Lusty Blunder over our ST1000 which incidentally I solved the problem, their tech in Akl couldn't. They wanted about $300 for a new board as the nmea0183 didn't work. I looked at the circuit diagram and saw there was a mosfet optocoupler. I said rip one off a old board and solder that on, now works. When I looked inside the ST1000, was surprised how shoddy the thing was. The case lugs fracture too, a problem they have since fixed. A shame pelagic have no agent here and don't do N2K. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Yourmomm 2 Posted January 30, 2019 Share Posted January 30, 2019 Better "pants" than just Y fronts! Wasn't going to wade through the manual but the separate drive I think is only "seatalk". You need the AP controller to operate it and that uses N2K. Typical "gaymarine". The trouble we had with Lusty Blunder over our ST1000 which incidentally I solved the problem, their tech in Akl couldn't. They wanted about $300 for a new board as the nmea0183 didn't work. I looked at the circuit diagram and saw there was a mosfet optocoupler. I said rip one off a old board and solder that on, now works. When I looked inside the ST1000, was surprised how shoddy the thing was. The case lugs fracture too, a problem they have since fixed. A shame pelagic have no agent here and don't do N2K. Yep it was the rubbish cheap plastic drive cogs shearing under load causing raymarine failures as I remember....but I could be wrong. I've heard that vintage raymarine tiller drives were built more hardily. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Crazyhorse 47 Posted January 30, 2019 Share Posted January 30, 2019 Yep it was the rubbish cheap plastic drive cogs shearing under load causing raymarine failures as I remember....but I could be wrong. I've heard that vintage raymarine tiller drives were built more hardily. Same with the old Navico. Had a TP10 that went through hell several times (bloody Cape Turnagain!), buckets of water and rain and survived. Came with the ship 2002 and was still going strong when I sold it last year but it started taking an "interest" in rocks and other boats. Go below to make coffee and pop your head up to see its charging off towards the nearest hard stuff. The cast alloy gears and worm drive seemed a lot gruntier even though it's only supposed to be used on a small keeler. It's all plastic now. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Crazyhorse 47 Posted January 30, 2019 Share Posted January 30, 2019 With the information presented I don't see a product problem I see the problem as being the person who brought the wrong item for the job and/or used it wrongly. I see that sort of thing almost daily. It's so much easier to blame the product than admit you made a mistake or are simply a ruff bastard. Where did that come from!? Reading between the lines? How being "a ruff bastard" makes a tiller pilot pop its mosfet optocoupler!? Or for that matter, have a 6 month old TP32 suddenly lose its ability to hold a course? So please do enlighten me as to what mistake I made? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Steve Pope 243 Posted January 31, 2019 Share Posted January 31, 2019 If you check out Webb Chiles latest circumnavigation chronicles, he has had to send all (3 + - ? ) his tiller pilots in for repair at just about every stop, given that the yacht is basically a day sailer. I would doubt whether they are ever overloaded. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Yourmomm 2 Posted January 31, 2019 Share Posted January 31, 2019 Yeah needless to say I dont much like your input either, knot me. The original question pertained to which is better: raymarine or pelagic? I gave a simple answer, based on my experience: in my view, there's no competition. Pelagic survived the 'ruff bastard' treatment I gave it, with no issues at all, whilst numerous raymarines, on the same boat, (and with the same skipper), did NOT. And pelagic is a damned sight cheaper, to boot, so I'm not really sure what point you're trying to make in your contribution? If you dont believe me, rather than attack me, for "using the wrong tool for the wrong job", how about you try opening each of them up, and comparing them, as I have actually done? You'll see build quality on different ends of the scale: raymarine uses plastic gearing, which WILL inevitably eventually shear under load, (and frankly, looks like a child constructed it, out of stuff they got free in a box of cereal), whilst pelagic does not (or did not, back then, I'm not sure about now, I havent checked). FWIW, I have a raymarine again, now, (st 4000, on a 25footer, that came with the boat, and is ALREADY playing up, being overloaded in gusts, even when under full reefing). Guess what I'm NOT going to replace it with? But feel free, to buy raymarine, if you like, as your experience may vary. Just dont suggest that the reason I think they're crap is because theres something wrong with me, rather than because of the cost-cutting efforts of the company, to pass off increasingly worse-built products as "technological advancement" of previous iterations, (with increasingly weight restricted limitations), whilst other companies dont put similar weight restrictions on their products, and charge a LOT less to boot... Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Island Time 1,235 Posted January 31, 2019 Share Posted January 31, 2019 Boat displacement is irrelevant, its helm load that matters. IMO the raymarine tiller pilots, and the navico tiller pilots are designed for occasional weekend use, and are not sufficiently reliable for serious offshore sailing. Sure,some of both brands have done it, but the failure rate is pretty high in this type of use. Far better to use a hydraulic ram, or similar for tiller vessels. Imo. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
bazzathemammoth 37 Posted January 31, 2019 Share Posted January 31, 2019 We have a st4000 on our boat. Had a pretty spotty run with it initially, but I resoldered the motor connections and upgraded the factory plug/socket and it works pretty well now. Before doing that it had very little pushing power and stalled all the time. It cant handle a full rudder load (Elliott 10.5) but does a good enough job in most conditions and hasn't played up since. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Crazyhorse 47 Posted January 31, 2019 Share Posted January 31, 2019 Boat displacement is irrelevant, its helm load that matters. IMO the raymarine tiller pilots, and the navico tiller pilots are designed for occasional weekend use, and are not sufficiently reliable for serious offshore sailing. Sure,some of both brands have done it, but the failure rate is pretty high in this type of use. Far better to use a hydraulic ram, or similar for tiller vessels. Imo. Trouble here IT is I am talking electrical faults, not stripped worm drives or burnt out motors. Its far from a load issue, its bodgy main boards with dodgy solder joints and components along with thin cases with flimsy screw standoffs. No water ingress, both our ST1000 and TP32 well covered and protected from direct sunlight and both have faulted, the TP in less than 6 months of what I would not call strenuous use. A shame Pelagic are not serious about selling their pilots here ? Or for that matter adopting N2K instead of 0183 For KM's info, a optocoupler is used to isolate DC from sensitive data circuits buy using a light flashing on and off at very high speed, a sender and receiver in a small package that allows the data through but completely isolated.....more or less! Quote Link to post Share on other sites
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