Rgvkiwi 12 Posted November 28, 2021 Share Posted November 28, 2021 As per title, I am mechaniclly able and am keen to know how the rudder is setup on a Ross830 with a view to a stop gap repair if not a full repair before our planned Christmas week cruise.. Our tiller is quite stiff, it creaks on first movement, slops and then settles in to place until the next change of direction. Presuming this is a rudder issue. Its obviousley not right. So a few questions for the hive mind The key question is can or will it fall off, or fail its key locating (however it is "splined" to the rudder)...? if we use it during Christmas. Knowing how they are designed would be a big step in being able to consider the risk of waiting or not. Can anyone help point me to a plan or diagram, photo etc of the bearing / bushing setup and however the tiller is located to the rudder? My guess is we have a bearing/bushing issue AND a locating pin/spline problem. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Rats 28 Posted November 29, 2021 Share Posted November 29, 2021 Or a bent rudder shaft? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Rgvkiwi 12 Posted November 29, 2021 Author Share Posted November 29, 2021 22 minutes ago, Rats said: Or a bent rudder shaft? Maybe. Dont have enough knowledge or experience. Good suggestion though. While it might be more expensive long term, at least it woudl likely last through Christmas! (no jinxes). Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Jon 327 Posted November 29, 2021 Share Posted November 29, 2021 It’s not possibly full of salt/marine growth ? If it’s just plastic of a type bushes top and bottom it may just need a good clean and grease (of the correct type) I’ve seen this in boats that have sat for a while Sometimes there’s a grease nipple between the two bushes which would be hard to get to on a 830 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Rgvkiwi 12 Posted November 29, 2021 Author Share Posted November 29, 2021 1 hour ago, Jon said: It’s not possibly full of salt/marine growth ? If it’s just plastic of a type bushes top and bottom it may just need a good clean and grease (of the correct type) I’ve seen this in boats that have sat for a while Sometimes there’s a grease nipple between the two bushes which would be hard to get to on a 830 That would be great if so. On top of the base of the tiller is a big stanless bolt head. Any ideas what or how the shaft works below that on these boats? Is that bolt screwed in to a threaded portion of the rudder shaft? How is the tille keyed in to the shaft? Do they use actual bearings or do they use some sort of bush (metal, plastic)? Are they all likely to be built all the same or are they likelly to be different from different constructors, home builders? Were Ross boats a production type boat or a home built/finshed kind of deal? (and thus could be any thing). So many questions! Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Island Time 1,117 Posted November 29, 2021 Share Posted November 29, 2021 Post a photo... 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Psyche 483 Posted November 29, 2021 Share Posted November 29, 2021 Generally if there is an issue with a rudder its a good idea to remove it and inspect it carefully, consider it maintenance. It will be pretty basic and youll work it out quickly once its off. Rudders dont generally fail when its sunny and pleasant and you dont want to find out that it has a problem when youre smashing home in the Colville channel 1 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Island Time 1,117 Posted November 29, 2021 Share Posted November 29, 2021 Creaking and stiffness can also be if it's self lubricating plastic bearings and some one has greased them. The grease dries out and, as it's doing this, some types of plastics can expand. This can also happen over time with plastic bearings if the wrong plastic has been used - some are not dimensionally stable when they get wet, and can swell sufficiently to make the steering stiff or even seized. But it depends on the rudder stock and bearing design..... If plastic bearings are used, they should be Vesconite or similar. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Rgvkiwi 12 Posted December 6, 2021 Author Share Posted December 6, 2021 Images of stiff and creaking tiller/rudder cassembly as requested. Thoughts on how it might be put together? Especially on how the rudder is "keyed" to the tiller....wondering about the slop in the tiller also. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Jon 327 Posted December 6, 2021 Share Posted December 6, 2021 Firstly I’d try blocking the cockpit drains with corks or similar and flood the cockpit with saltaway or similar solution then work the tiller and try to flush out the dirt and salt There will be a key way cut into the head of the rudder stock and tiller base, remove the bolt and washer and the rudder will drop through, but will be tight so will probably need flushing anyway If your brave remove the bolt and washer then replace the bolt with a line tied to it then work the tiller, this will allow you to see what’s happening and allow liquid better access Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Island Time 1,117 Posted December 7, 2021 Share Posted December 7, 2021 Ok, now a pic from under the cockpit floor, so we can see the rudder tube. This looks like it might be a tube from the hull thru the boat and cockpit floor. But there is little room under the tiller for a horizontal bearing surface. Could be rollers as well. Rollers likely gummed up/rusted or failed. Have to drop the rudder to be sure... Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Rgvkiwi 12 Posted December 8, 2021 Author Share Posted December 8, 2021 23 hours ago, Island Time said: Ok, now a pic from under the cockpit floor, so we can see the rudder tube. This looks like it might be a tube from the hull thru the boat and cockpit floor. But there is little room under the tiller for a horizontal bearing surface. Could be rollers as well. Rollers likely gummed up/rusted or failed. Have to drop the rudder to be sure... Bugger I menat to do that but forgot. Thats for sticking with me! ) I read somewhere that rudders usually have positive bouyouncy. Is this true? IM thinking if true its not likely to be TOO heavy. And taking that a step further, maybe it wouldn't just fall out if I undo that big bolt head while in mooring? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Vivaldi 45 Posted December 8, 2021 Share Posted December 8, 2021 On 7/12/2021 at 4:22 PM, Island Time said: Ok, now a pic from under the cockpit floor, so we can see the rudder tube. This looks like it might be a tube from the hull thru the boat and cockpit floor. But there is little room under the tiller for a horizontal bearing surface. Could be rollers as well. Rollers likely gummed up/rusted or failed. Have to drop the rudder to be sure... Pretty sure it’s a tube from the hull up through to the cockpit floor. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Island Time 1,117 Posted December 8, 2021 Share Posted December 8, 2021 1 hour ago, Rgvkiwi said: Bugger I menat to do that but forgot. Thats for sticking with me! ) I read somewhere that rudders usually have positive bouyouncy. Is this true? IM thinking if true its not likely to be TOO heavy. And taking that a step further, maybe it wouldn't just fall out if I undo that big bolt head while in mooring? The rudder should be reasonably neutral buoyancy. Probably sink, but not by much. You must make a method of retention if you undo the nut. Also, it will capsize, and either sink or float stock down... My rudder probably weighs about 60KG, and is pretty neutral buoyancy. Don't loose the rudder! 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Rgvkiwi 12 Posted December 8, 2021 Author Share Posted December 8, 2021 Yikes 60kg's! Right so bouyant still doens't mean light then Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Black Panther 1,415 Posted December 8, 2021 Share Posted December 8, 2021 Correct water is heavy stuff. Reminds me, after Xmas must install wash down pump near anchor. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
harrytom 575 Posted December 8, 2021 Share Posted December 8, 2021 Any grids or a wharf that dries?? Trying get rudder back in if it drops hmm might be worth watching 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Black Panther 1,415 Posted December 8, 2021 Share Posted December 8, 2021 27 minutes ago, harrytom said: Any grids or a wharf that dries?? Trying get rudder back in if it drops hmm might be worth watching Good idea, try for half tide so it drops - then floats. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Jon 327 Posted December 8, 2021 Share Posted December 8, 2021 I’d be trying flushing it first before you drop it, will need dropping next haulout but it should free up if you get the salt and dirt out. It won’t just drop if you remove the bolt as it’s stiff, try removing the bolt then replace with a longer one so you can work the tiller whilst flushing but it can’t drop too far if it suddenly frees up Chances are it’s a tube from cockpit sole to hull with plastic bushes top and bottom so it can flex between 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Rgvkiwi 12 Posted December 9, 2021 Author Share Posted December 9, 2021 1 hour ago, Jon said: I’d be trying flushing it first before you drop it, will need dropping next haulout but it should free up if you get the salt and dirt out. It won’t just drop if you remove the bolt as it’s stiff, try removing the bolt then replace with a longer one so you can work the tiller whilst flushing but it can’t drop too far if it suddenly frees up Chances are it’s a tube from cockpit sole to hull with plastic bushes top and bottom so it can flex between Does Salt Slayer(Burnsco) or Salt Terminator (CRC) work as well as Salt Slayer? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
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