Fogg 427 Posted January 7, 2011 Share Posted January 7, 2011 People talk about going over to the 'dark side' in the context of moving from mono to multi or vice-versa. So I'm not quite sure how else to categorise this topic other than REAL dark. Anyway, bit of background. A couple of years ago I toyed with the idea of upgrading AC, chucking in an extra couple of hundred grand and landing myself a nice 45 footer, say. But after taking a serious look at several decent boats I couldn't convince myself to make the jump. Reason being I imagined myself standing in the cockpit on a Fri eve or Sat am and thinking "Great, so now I've got this extra 10 feet boat length, think of all the different things I'll be able to do this weekend, like go to Kawau or Waiheke or Barrier or errrr........ a bit like I did in AC in fact. Actually a LOT like I did in AC. OK, so the extra 10ft might get me there a few minutes earlier and I might feel slightly bolder about pushing out in marginal weather (where's the fun in that) or I might have a couple of extra creature comforts..... but the bottom line is that my $200k wouldn't give me very much extra over the boat I already loved... so why ditch AC? So I didn't. Bit more background. OK, this is where it starts to get a bit darker. The seed was first sown back in August last year when some of you may recall I popped back 'home' to the UK to visit friends and family and had blast with my best mate on his... wait for it..... 50ft flybridge launch (in fact here is a pic as reminder): The key points of note were that my visit was short, the weather was a bit iffy and so we had to make the most of a small window of opportunity, ideally to go somewhere nice. And the difference between what we could have done in even a 50ft yacht vs his 50ft launch were stark, namely we barrelled off (responsibly) at close to 30kts to get to a choice destination lunch spot in about 20 mins….. enjoyed a relaxing day and then left for home comfortable in the knowledge we would stay warm and dry and would make our dinner reservation back on land with pinpoint accuracy of timing. And I have to say that despite 30-odd years of yachting, that left an impression on me. Obviously with yachts the emphasis is on the journey as much as the destination whereas with launches it’s more about the destination and getting there and back as quickly as possible. But both these scenarios are equally valid especially in today’s modern, busy world where we are increasingly used to wanting options. So, my thoughts turned to the ‘dream’ scenario. You know, the “If I won the lotto, this is what I would have” kind-of-thing. And (amongst other things) I ended up dreaming of a nice yacht AND a nice, tasteful, fast launch to give me the best of both worlds and all options. Then, out of curiosity, I decided to check out the prices of a half-decent, fast, flybridge launch. I don’t meant the $million Azimut type thing but something more realistic – in fact I decided to explore what my extra $200k would buy me if I threw it at a launch instead of an upgrade to AC. Yes, I realise that the total cost of ownership of both AC and a 35-40ft planning launch would be way higher than just a 45ft yacht (not least due to massive fuel costs) but the key point is that I was surprised by what you could buy for that kind of cash. Here’s an example I randomly picked – don’t focus on the details of this specific boat but the principle of what you can get for the money, namely a tidy 35-40ft ish launch that would roughly fulfil the criteria of my earlier ‘there and back lunch spot’ story. http://www.trademe.co.nz/Trade-Me-Motors/Boats-marine/Motorboats/35/auction-336157711.htm I realise that at this point I will have lost many die-hard yachtie readers and so be it. The point of this is to highlight that IF you felt like exploring both boating options then maybe it isn’t as unrealistic as I first thought. I don’t know many people who own both yachts and launches at the same time - I know plenty who have made the switch from one to the other (usually from yacht to launch in older age) – but the analogy I’d use it that for years I owned at least two cars, a big 4x4 and a open-top sports car – which gave me the best transport option depending on whether it was a warm, dry summer day or a dark, rainy winter night. I didn’t think it was necessary to pledge lifetime allegiance to either a 4x4 or a sports car and to mock anyone who owned the opposite. It felt quite acceptable to own both types of vehicle and use the one that best suited conditions on the spur of the moment. So why not take the same approach with boats? Assuming you were able to cut your cloth to suit your budget, then why not consider owning both a nice yacht and a fast launch and not feel ashamed of it – as I almost do writing this here. Anyway, discuss. Link to post Share on other sites
dutyfree 170 Posted January 7, 2011 Share Posted January 7, 2011 I switched from a Farr 1220 to a 40ft launch. Not in old age, unless 42 is old. Why? Practicality. Limited time, yound son and friends who had launches. I grew up on launches, spent 20 years sailing and windsurfing and loved the 1220. But in the launch I could get from Westhaven to TeKouma in 2 hours (while keeping well clear of yachts on the way), arrive and anchor in 1 and bit meters of water, drop the anchor from the helm, have almost 500 litres of water and I did not have to worry about the wind or cold. I could get up, jump on the launch and be fishing by Tiri in an hour and bit etc. I could still yacht race as I always had with my friends, but fishing/diving etc was all easier and my wife who also loves yachts was much much happier. At the end of the day my wife and I love sailing, but we love being on the water even more. So yes most of the time I am a stinkpot w##ker. Link to post Share on other sites
wheels 543 Posted January 7, 2011 Share Posted January 7, 2011 Almost Excomunication. Treason. Hearisy. A Stoning offense. Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Posted January 7, 2011 Share Posted January 7, 2011 For Sue & I it is all about the cruising destination (although I do love being bluewater in any type of vessel). After a couple of thousand miles bluewater in power boats this year doing a couple of deliveries, Sue has discovered she is much more comfortable under power than under sail. It also has the advantage of being able to stand up straight to have a shower, room for a beer fridge and workshop (Sue even mentioned there would be enough room for me to brew beer!!!), less draft for anchoring, yadda yadda yadda. It also appears that with the right application then fuel costs are largely offset by no rig, sails etc. Consequently we are putting Nightcap on the market and are planning to buy an ex commercial, displacement fishing boat and converting it to a bluewater cruiser. After roughing out a budget there is a hell of a lot more bang for buck going this way than upgrading under sail. Whew, confession is great for the soul. Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Posted January 7, 2011 Share Posted January 7, 2011 If you have a decent sized launch you can always take a sailing dinghy with you and get your sailing fix once you get to your destination. Link to post Share on other sites
SloopJohnB 322 Posted January 7, 2011 Share Posted January 7, 2011 If you have a decent sized launch you can always take a sailing dinghy with you and get your sailing fix once you get to your destination. Thats needly as bad as drinking 2 stroke beer. Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Posted January 7, 2011 Share Posted January 7, 2011 Why not a decent bridgedeck catamaran. All the conveniences and standard of living your wife is after (probably better than a stinkpot), more comfortable underway than a stinkpot (not to mention quieter), and a couple of big diesels if you need to power home. BUt it is a real sailboat - best of both worlds I wouldn't go the dark route till I tried a big cat. 10 secs on Google I found this http://www.multihulls.net.au/index.php?page=ed&de=72096 Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Posted January 7, 2011 Share Posted January 7, 2011 10 secs on Google I found this http://www.multihulls.net.au/index.php?page=ed&de=72096 About 3X the $ that I can do a converted 45' fishing boat for (less my labour time) which equates to 3 more years before I can head away again. Another facet of the power boat thing is we want to do more educational & humanitarian work in some of the more remote places and the extra volume would enable us to transport a small amount of cargo and fuel to supply villages that have sporadic supply lines at best. Link to post Share on other sites
marinheiro 352 Posted January 7, 2011 Share Posted January 7, 2011 I ran a Launch (Vindex 32) in Perth for some years and it was just ideal for the boating situation there and a great boat, Jim Young produced a brilliant design. One warning with many of the older "fast" launches (which can't actually get up on the plane) in NZ, their engines are worn out and you want to be very careful of "green hand grenades" such as fitted to AC's link launch Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Posted January 8, 2011 Share Posted January 8, 2011 I wouldn't go the dark route till I tried a big cat. I have it on good authority that Murray Ross is moving from this http://www.multisail.co.nz/yacht.htm to something like this http://www.sunseekerlondon.com/showboat.php?bid=30 Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Posted January 8, 2011 Share Posted January 8, 2011 Another good reason to try the cat. Pete, the price in the 300k range was aimed at AC (his boat plus a couple of hundred). Don't know your budget, but multis are more expensive than monos unless you can get your head around a proa (not many can). As a postscript, I wouldn't try to stop someone doing what they want, but I can't get interested in a powerboat, every time I go on one (maybe 2-3 times in the last 15 years) I just can't see the attraction - each to their own I guess. Link to post Share on other sites
TimW 1 Posted January 8, 2011 Share Posted January 8, 2011 AC I'd like you to take the running cost of that 200k launch into consideration, not just maintenance but also the fuel costs. The fuel costs are especially relevant at the "higher speeds" you are considering, as are increased maintenance costs of running a fast planing launch. I'd suggest the incremental cost of each extra trip you take in your high speed launch would be significantly higher than a fast cruiser multi. And further I'd suggest the resale value of the cruiser multi will also be significantly higher. Basically I'd reckon the example Squid gave (a 40' Schionning) could be pushed at full speed (20 odd knots) for a very long time with little additional maintenance required, cf the big launch which is burning a big hole in your pockets. then time to sell in 5 years time. i'm guessing your launches motor is very tired and resale value won't be so flash, whereas the 40' cat is probably still worth what you paid for and put into it. Link to post Share on other sites
Fogg 427 Posted January 8, 2011 Author Share Posted January 8, 2011 A big cat is a credible proposition and probably has some advantages around running costs and resale value too.... but it doesn't completely nail the criteria of covering the ground as fast a planning launch does it? Something link a 11-12m cat is surely only going to motor at 10kts full noise, whereas I'm talking about a launch that could cruise at 2.5 x that speed - which really opens up more possibilities for covering distance (if you are prepared to pay the fuel bill). Last year I cruised up to the BOI, harbour-hopping with a civilised few hours sailing each day. If I recall correctly it took me something like 3 days to make my way up to Whangamumu, dropping my anchor around 3.30pm. My friends who were meeting me dropped their anchor alongside me at 4pm having left Auckland only 4hrs earlier at at midday - in their 44' Sunseeker. For sure I had enjoyed the previous 3 days pottering up the coast under sail and I had the time to do it - I was alone and unpressured. But they had spent the same 3 days ashore involved in Christmas family commitments meaning they couldn't get away until that day. But they had to ability to catch up and reach new cruising grounds in a way they wouldn't in a yacht. Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Posted January 8, 2011 Share Posted January 8, 2011 Think about pulling up at Whangaparapara and sticking $1500 of diesel in it. oook. I like displacement launches - say 9l/hr for 8-9knots. You can go a long way at a solid 9knots in 6 hrs - like Westhaven to Fitzroy for say 54l of diesel. If you do it in 2 hrs at 25kts whats it gonna cost you? Lower revs, less noise, heat and maintenance. Its like a 1960's V8 vs 2003 EVO. One has a much higher propensity to go POP. I'm with Squid - bridgedeck sailing cat - bit more bucks but better resale and relatively high cruising speeds. Dont get me wrong AC - planing launches have their place - for people that think they are far to important to waste time getting there.... Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Posted January 8, 2011 Share Posted January 8, 2011 Interesting topic and very similar to one I was pondering over Xmas myself. Is a 'cruise away' - 1 - Getting to the destination/s 2 - The destinations themselves 0r 3 - A combo of both? I know I can't answer 2 as any destination is what you make it or at least local Xmas Hols type cruising anyway but that maybe just a personal thing having been there done that with most places a Aucklander and those of us who live by that shithole tend to go to. Anywho, the reason many launches are going cheap and they'll get cheaper yet is what Tim mentioned, running costs. They are getting nasty and they won't get any better. Also bar in mind many vessels like the production tupperware thing AC linked to have crap range so refilling over the Xmas cruz usually has to happen at Kawau or Barrier at yet lot higher prices again. Adding to that is the fast decreasing numbers of fuel jetties which I'm told could easily lead to a supply and demand price increase. We were away this Xmas in 60ft of steel cruising yacht which is knot flash at light airs sailing so we motored sailed a fair bit at 6-7kts. Sure the 930 would have been faster but the tripping was still enjoyable mainly due to the vessel. It is big and you can wonder around easily. That gave a whole differing perspective from the 930 for example. The big boat sure had some advantages but equally it had some downsides as well, mostly mechanically related. End result was me and the Wa couldn't say we would definitely have one over the other for what we tend to do at the moment. But we both reckoned the slower passages were fine and enjoyable on big steel due to having all that extra space. So having just come back from cleaning big steel, which included all the engineering side of things, which on the 930 takes 5 mins and on big steel 20 times that, I think it's knot so much a sail V's power thing more as it is a space thing. In which case I'd be leaning with the get a nice multi comments. Why knot have the best of both worlds, fast sailing and if stuck under motor chuck the autodriver on and you have lots of space to wonder around and do shite, which does negate a big pile of that 'longer passage times' angle. That's for AC, for Pete I know what he's after and his conversion is probably the best course. Back to AC, And don't forget while your tupperware may do 25kts on a nice day just try that speed bashing back home into 30kts and waves. Your guts get turned to a milkshake, your hearing lose is accelerated and that's assuming the boat doesn't start falling apart around you, as many have. Bashing back from Barrier on a nasty day will be at a speed a LOT lower than 25kts and more than likely also less than that of a nice multi. We were trying to catch some fish out behind the Noises earlier in the week, FYI no fish in the Gulf, and watched a relatively new 50 odd foot fizz coming home from Barrier with a 30-35kt tailwind and the sea state it had whipped up. Even the kids were laughing at the seemingly out of control motion it had going on. Whoever was driving was concentrating hard and moving the wheel fast. It's a long way to have to do that. Knot to mention the ride looked very much like it would have turned into a chunder run for the passengers. A big multi would have been just as fast, a lot more comfortable, a lot lower work load, less chunder cleaning and wouldn't have used 500 plus lts of fuel. What's more you can still get your rowing machine on a multi and Yes we'll take the piss out of you just the same Link to post Share on other sites
Fogg 427 Posted January 8, 2011 Author Share Posted January 8, 2011 In which case I'd be leaning with the get a nice multi comments. Why knot have the best of both worlds, fast sailing and if stuck under motor chuck the autodriver on and you have lots of space to wonder around and do shite, which does negate a big pile of that 'longer passage times' angle.A big multi would have been just as fast, a lot more comfortable, a lot lower work load, less chunder cleaning and wouldn't have used 500 plus lts of fuel. What's more you can still get your rowing machine on a multi and Yes we'll take the piss out of you just the same Big multi as a better option? Probably right. Rowing machine? How did you know I had one? Although it's more a item of furniture than an instrument of torture these days (mainly cos the powder blue finish fits the colour scheme of my living room)! Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Posted January 8, 2011 Share Posted January 8, 2011 AC whats that darker grey bit on the back of your tv Link to post Share on other sites
Fogg 427 Posted January 8, 2011 Author Share Posted January 8, 2011 AC whats that darker grey bit on the back of your tv The tube i.e. it's the only living room in NZ to not have a flat screen yet (I'm holding out cos it only gets turned on about 3 times a year and I watch more TV/video clips on my computer screen than my TV). Link to post Share on other sites
Fogg 427 Posted January 8, 2011 Author Share Posted January 8, 2011 Been thinking about it some more.... I think the big cat idea is still off the mark.... I wanna go fast but be on the water at the other end... so this is what I need (it's on the market for ~ NZD$100k). I could raft up for the night with mates in the bay and think of the possibilities for towing waterskieis, biscuits etc - it would be a hit! And you could also use it for chasing off jetskiers. Too easy, don't know why it took me so long to get there. Mmmmmm, wonder what GH marina will charge for a berth (have to be on the end I guess)... Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Posted January 8, 2011 Share Posted January 8, 2011 You'd need a Multi berth for sure and at 40-45 odd lts an hour that would be far cheaper to run than a 35ft production tupperware, knot to mention it would have far superior windward performance than most boats. Bit of calm water, a well designed boom (wing???) tent and she could make an interesting if knot luxury filled cruiser :) She'd have the most interesting view looking down the long drop of any dunny I can think of In my research for me and the Wa's new house I ran into these, Tennant motorsailers. http://www.tennantdesign.co.nz/index.php?page=sundiver Sure knot the most pretty but then much better than many AWB's but do mention motoring and sailing speeds well over 15kts and room, they'd be huge and shite loads of room for your rowing machine and MOTAT telly Link to post Share on other sites
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