Gulf Harbour Ferry service no more?

[Zozza 293]

Got the below email from the Marina in my inbox this evening:
_______________
AT draft Regional Public Transport Plan open for feedback before 17 August
Hi Boaties

Auckland Transport have released their draft Regional Public Transport Plan 2023-2031 for feedback from the public. One of the proposed items in the plan is the  removal of the Gulf Harbour ferry service once the Penlink road is built. AT are proposing replacing the ferry service with bus services. 

As locals, we are all well aware of the time it takes to commute from Gulf Harbour to the city by road. Currently the peak travel time from the rear of the Peninsula to Silverdale bus station can be 45 minutes; the ferry service is 50 minutes to the downtown ferry terminal. 

Gulf Harbour Marina is part of the Gulf Harbour community, and we want our community to be a flourishing, vibrant place to live. If you think that the ferry service is something that you think plays a vital part in our community, please give feedback to Auckland Transport before 17 August 2023. You can do this via email rptp@at.govt.nz or by using their online feedback tool.  

[khayyam 68]

Yup, proposed at least.

https://www.rnz.co.nz/national/programmes/checkpoint/audio/2018897978/whangaparaoa-locals-oppose-getting-rid-of-often-cancelled-ferry

[Island Time 1,235]

Nearly 400 at the meeting last week, pretty good turnout from a pop at the end of the peninsular of 7000... and over 3000 signatures on the petition a week ago.

[K4309 257]

So if you can get from the Marina to the city by bus faster, cheaper and more reliably than the ferry, why are you guys getting upset? 

Don't you want fast, reliable and cheap public transport? or do you want a ferry?

The glaring PR in that email Zozza got is the CURRENT travel time by road, not the travel time with an $800million new motorway that cuts half the distance and increases road capacity by 200%.

[Black Panther 1,587]

22 minutes ago, K4309 said:

So if you can get from the Marina to the city by bus faster, cheaper and more reliably than the ferry, why are you guys getting upset? 

Don't you want fast, reliable and cheap public transport? or do you want a ferry?

The glaring PR in that email Zozza got is the CURRENT travel time by road, not the travel time with an $800million new motorway that cuts half the distance and increases road capacity by 

 Not correct.

Ferry is way faster than bus. Penlink will knock about 10 mins off travel time, but won't  affect bus travel through Silverdale. 

I know I'm in a minority on the peninsula but I woukd have canned penlink and put the money into more/better public transport. 

[K4309 257]

11 hours ago, Black Panther said:

 Not correct.

Ferry is way faster than bus. Penlink will knock about 10 mins off travel time, but won't  affect bus travel through Silverdale. 

I know I'm in a minority on the peninsula but I woukd have canned penlink and put the money into more/better public transport. 

So when was the last time you used the ferry?

[K4309 257]

12 hours ago, Black Panther said:

 Not correct.

Ferry is way faster than bus. Penlink will knock about 10 mins off travel time, but won't  affect bus travel through Silverdale. 

I know I'm in a minority on the peninsula but I woukd have canned penlink and put the money into more/better public transport. 

First google says the travel time will reduce by 20 min, not 10 (peak time).

And you are assuming Gulf Harbour buses will go via the Silverdale interchange. I'd very much hope that after dropping $800mil on a bridge, someone would have the foresight to reconfigure the bus routes to actually use it.

Penlink was never approved to reduce travel time on the coast. It was solely to allow the Milldale Development to proceed, along with the yet to be announced "Silverdale West" developments on the Western side of the motorway between the Silverdale interchange and the BP. This was all zoned Future Urban in the 2016 Unitary Plan. This is because the Silverdale and Millwater motorway exists are already at capacity and preventing the 8,000 new homes going ahead West of the motorway. Penlink shifts the Whangaparaoa traffic further down the motorway allowing the Milldale traffic to use the existing two exits. It is for the same reason they are currently building a new bridge across the motorway from Highgate Parkway to Milldale. I was present in a series of meetings where all of this was discussed and confirmed.

But back to the ferry:

1) Do you know how much diesel it burns on each trip. Ferries use spectacular amounts of diesel. Even more than Riveria's and Martimo's apparently. This is why they are all trying to rush out electric ferries. If you believe in man-made climate change then you will call for the ferry to be scrapped.

2) Do you know the level of subsidy for this ferry? For each ferry passenger, imagine if you could pay for 10 Northern Express bus trips?

All I'm seeing at the moment is a load of emotional response resisting change to the proposal to scrap the ferry. Interestingly, I've not seen any actual details from AT about the pro's and con's. I suspect this is the 'softening up' phase where they socialise the idea in the community, everyone gets fired up and spends all the energy fighting it, and in 5 years time when they actually get around to cancelling it, everyone has either sub-consciously accepted it or lost the energy to fight it.

PS, 40% of sailings were cancelled last year. How do you get to work when it is that unreliable? Better still, how do you get home again?

PPS, there is walking and cycling on the new Penlink, so you can grab your e-bike, do your cardio and get into town (or Albany at the least) and not need to go near a stinking diesel fumed crowded public bus.

 

Auckland's O Mahurangi Penlink road to be tolled | RNZ News

[Black Panther 1,587]

27 minutes ago, K4309 said:

So when was the last time you used the ferry?

I'm not in NZ so any answer would be irrelevant. 

[K4309 257]

Proposing electric buses going every 7.5 minutes (peak) or 15 min off peak.

New bus station in Whangarapaoa.

Cheaper service $7.18 compared to $11.60

Services start earlier and stop later in the day. So you can go for dinner or a gig and still use PT to get home. Imagine.

For CBD trips the travel time would be 60 min about 10 min longer than the ferry.

Far better connectivity to North Shore destinations, while the ferry is CBD only.

 

Gulf Harbour ferry services could be replaced by electric buses from 2028 | Stuff.co.nz

 

[Island Time 1,235]

Sorry, but the AT data is fundamentally flawed. Timing wise it doesn't allow for the times to GET to penlink, or the fact most of the ferry users come from the outer end of the peninsula. Most days at peak traffic times it can take 15 mins to get from Army bay to where the new "kiss and ride" bus station will be (NO parking!). Travel TO GH from these areas is usually a few mins, not stuck in the queues.

Currently there is a new 88 home development at fairway bay, and it's quite likely that the (now closed) GH golf and country club will become housing - 400 + homes. All this on a basic dual carriageway road, just to get to Penlink or the Penlink bus station, PLUS a bunch of extra busses on the road and the extra traffic from the new developments? That 15 mins could easily reach 30 mins in the next few years. 

The bigger ferries hold 240 passengers. A 50 min trip to central Auckland. The buses simply wont be able to do that at peak periods.  And I think 60 people on a bus. So 4 bus loads on a ferry.

We have had a bus accident blocking off Gulf Harbour completely (Blocked both lanes of Whangaparaoa Rd, for many hours) - this is the ONLY road, no other access but by air or boat (no emergency services). The ferry at least gives one other option.

Currently AT are saying that "most" of the GH ferry cancellations are due to weather. That is simply not correct. When 360 ran it, there were approx 5% cancellations. Now it's 43%. People are not using the ferry because its too unreliable. Current patronage is about 5000/month. It was over 15000/month at peak, when it was reliable. The ferry car park (remember the new bus station does/will not have one) at GH hammerhead was often pretty full...

Weather - remember that the same size ferries (<24m) in Faveaux Strait, run in up to 50knots and 6m seas. We never get that here.

ALL other ferry routes are being increased, just not GH. AT have said, IF they retain the ferry, they will put on more (I don't understand their logic) ferries, incl weekends and evenings. To make a route work, it must be convenient for users...

I'll see if I can find the data about trip times and errors in the AT stuff. It was pretty well presented at the meeting.

 

 

[K4309 257]

1 hour ago, Island Time said:

Sorry, but the AT data is fundamentally flawed.

 

 

Sounds like you don't trust the govt with statements like that IT. Surely AT would use accurate numbers?

I would be interested in the data / numbers from the presentation.

There will be a lot more development and densification in the area than just the ones you mention. And Whanga Rd will only get more congested. I wonder if this is more to do with a squable between AT and Fullers over the Waiheke service and some internal leverage?

AT certainly look like they are working an angle, rather than putting up a straight question for consultation.

[Island Time 1,235]

For a start, AT were using passenger numbers from the last couple of years - covid and crap unreliable service so no workers want to go on it as they cant gaurantee to get home. If it actually leaves! The numbers were not wrong, but did not state the position accurately. Lies, Damn lies, and statistics! Picking statistics to suit your agenda is not being truthful...

[Island Time 1,235]

You can give feedback here https://aucklandtransport.au1.qualtrics.com/jfe/form/SV_4O50ulCJnvay6WO?URLTopic=mainlink

This is what I submitted.

I oppose the proposal to terminate the Gulf Harbour ferry service in 2028.

It reduces public transport options in this network, increases congestion on the eastern half of the peninsula and will result in greater private vehicle use and carbon emissions. It fails to recognise the specific constraints of this section of the Whangaparaoa Peninsula and the important role the Gulf Harbour ferry service plays in providing the fastest and most convenient public transport option to commuters travelling south to the city. As such it runs entirely contrary to the notion of an integrated public transport network on the Whangaparaoa Peninsula and has the potential to produce perverse effects on that network as a whole.

(b) This proposal will negatively impact people’s travel choices and their lives.

( a chance to briefly say if you live in the area and how it will affect you? Will you use a bus instead? Will it impact you travel choices and life more generally? How will this impact your travel if traffic congestion gets worse in the 10 kms of Whangaparaoa Road to the Penlink turn off in Stanmore Bay?)

e.g This proposal will adversely affect the travel choices and lives of people east of the Manly shops. Significant numbers of people have bought houses in Gulf Harbour and surrounds because of the presence of the ferry service. Indeed the ferry service has been marketed by developers for the last 20 years as a selling point and at one point assisted financially by the developer at Fairway Bay.

(c) The GH ferry service is a distinct travel option that has successfully served this part of the Whangaparaoa Peninsula for the last 25 years. It will not be duplicated by future improvements to the local bus service.

The GH ferry serves a distinct catchment on the Whangaparaoa Peninsula that will not be duplicated by improvements to the bus service in 2028.

The ferry service is the fastest, most convenient and comfortable public transport option for commuters travelling to the city. This applies to anyone living east of Little Manly travelling to the city. As such it is extremely unlikely ferry commuters will simply transfer to buses, indeed it is far more likely former ferry commuters will in fact return to their cars thereby exacerbating the already constrained roading network.

The journey times and choice of sample journey advanced by AT are misleading. By AT’s own Hop data the majority of ferry patrons come from the general Gulf Harbour catchment not Manly shops (as used in the sample representative journey put up AT - the average travel time attributed to the ferry exaggerated as a result).

The rationale of ‘duplication’ advanced for terminating the Gulf harbour ferry runs entirely contrary to what is being proposed for nearly all other ferry services in the RPTP where they are being extended despite the simultaneous investment of major new bus infrastructure in the same location. (e.g at West Harbour and Hobsonville the proposal is for additional peak, mid-day and evening ferry trips despite the fact an improved busway and express service from Westgate along the North Western Motorway is currently being constructed. Similarly at Half Moon Bay the proposal is to add additional peak and weekend trips despite the massive investment in the nearby Eastern Busway).

Right up until this RPTP proposal went out last week, Auckland Transport has previously consistently signalled to the community that the Gulf Harbour ferry service would also receive a similar extension in services over time. As such this proposal represents a breach of faith with the community.

(d) This proposal will add to the already constrained 10 kilometres of roading network from Gulf Harbour/Army Bay through to the Penlink intersection affecting both private vehicles and buses.

There is approximately 10 kilometres of roading east of the Penlink connection which remains entirely unaffected by the Penlink project. It is also the part of the peninsula served by the Gulf Harbour ferry service and which will become increasingly congested for private vehicles and buses alike as development continues.

This section of the peninsula already queues back to Little Manly in the mornings - Penlink does not do anything about this fundamental roading constraint east of the Whangaparaoa Plaza – there are no plans to widen or add lanes and previous studies through the legacy council have shown this to be prohibitively expensive. Removal of the ferry service will inevitably put more private vehicles back on the road for this 10 kilometre section exacerbating the congestion that already affects both buses and cars.

(In short if the ferry service is removed $835 million will have been spent improving the travel times getting off the peninsula once at Stanmore Bay but simultaneously increasing the travel time and congestion actually getting to that turn-off – in essence one step forwards two steps back for any bus or private vehicle travelling from east of the Plaza).

As such this proposal shows inadequate awareness of the internal network dynamics of the 15 kilometre long Whangaparaoa Peninsula. It assumes Penlink improves travel times along all the peninsula. It doesn’t. Whangaparaoa will therefore always remain a delicate balancing act in terms of traffic flows given its inherent geographic constraints with the ferry service remaining the best travel option for travel to the city from the eastern half of the peninsula for this coastal community.

(e) The proposal runs contrary to repeated assurances given by Auckland Transport that the ferry service would be increased and improved in the future. It also runs contrary to the emerging integrated transport network on the HBC .

This proposal runs entirely contrary to the repeated assurances given by AT over the last 6 years that the GH ferry service will be incrementally improved with additional sailings and improved vessels – assurances that have been backed up with considerable sunk investment in the GH ferry service – through implementation of additional sailings, the multi-million dollar purchase of the leasehold interest in the Hammerhead for the ferry terminal and associated parking (at the behest of AT) and the multi-million dollar payment for long term leases on the 3 ferry berths at the marina along with additional investment in ferry infrastructure at both Gulf Harbour and in the city.

As such this proposal represents a breach of faith with this community who were not consulted in any shape of form as with their elected representatives (and it would seem the operator as well its CEO publicly stating “We regard the Gulf Harbour ferry service as a valuable and important part of Auckland’s wider ferry network.”

The Gulf Harbour ferry service is a vital part of an emerging integrated transport network on the Hibiscus Coast involving private vehicle, bus and ferry travel. Penlink will enhance the overall network but to remove the ferry component as proposed will negatively impact the others to the detriment of

the network as a whole. The significant investment of Penlink will be compromised on the eastern half of the peninsula as a result.

(f) Auckland Transport’s assertion, as part of their rationale for eliminating the service, that ferry unreliability is mainly attributable to unfavourable weather conditions is incorrect.

Ferry cancellations were simply not a significant issue when the previous operator 360 Discovery ran the Gulf Harbour ferry service up to 2019. Cancellations in the period referred to in this proposal (41.3% figure quoted) were largely the result of the well-publicised region wide crew shortages, vessel breakdowns and other operator-related issues. To suggest otherwise, as this proposal does, is misleading. Auckland Transport’s own travel data below, shows average annual cancellation rates averaged only 6.8% in the four years 2018-2021 yet a phenomenal 43.13% in the last 18 months.

Average cancellation rates 2018 - 5.25%, 2019 – 5.79%, 2020 – 7.42%, 2021 – 8.91%, 2022 – 38.35%, 2023 – 47.91%

As far as cancellations go, the main issue lies with the operator’s performance not the weather (and indeed AT’s ongoing failure to ensure that a satisfactory standard of service is consistently being provided as was the case pre-2021). This has led to the view in the community that AT is allowing the service to be run down through chronic unreliability and a high cancellation rate rather than adequately addressing the operator’s shortcomings on this particular run and indeed across the ferry network as a whole.

(g) Overall carbon emissions will increase with the proposed termination of the ferry service

The Gulf Harbour ferry service makes a significant contribution to the reduction of carbon emissions from the eastern half of the Whangaparaoa Peninsula.

When the Gulf Harbour ferry was not beset with the chronic unreliability of the last 18 months it could average 16,000 to 18,000 boardings a month pre-covid with the previous operator (and that’s for just a 5 day a week timetable). Even with a 37.1% cancellation rate in March 2023 it still had over 10,000 boardings. Addressing operator reliability will see that number quickly climb back up again and increase even further with ongoing development in this area. The Gulf Harbour ferry can therefore make a significant contribution to an overall reduced carbon footprint for this part of the Whangaparaoa Peninsula especially if termination of the service results in the return of significant numbers of patrons to private vehicle use and increased congestion.

Battery electric and hydrogen technology is progressing fast. In 5 years time there could well be improved options for longer runs such as the Gulf Harbour route in addition to the funded efficiency gains from the ongoing upgrades to existing vessels in the fleet that will result in better performance.

The proposal to terminate the Gulf Harbour ferry service should be rejected and instead the focus in this RPTP put on increasing the weekly services at Gulf Harbour (including the trial of a weekend service). This would be consistent with what is happening with other ferry service across the region and with what has previously been planned for the Gulf Harbour service. It would also be far more consistent with the vision and goals articulated in this draft Regional Public Transport Plan.

[DrWatson 375]

The elephant in the room is that we insist on suburban sprawl, and we insist on commuting silly distances to work. 

There are better ways. 
 

Our current approach is simply unsustainable.

[Black Panther 1,587]

4 hours ago, DrWatson said:

The elephant in the room is that we insist on suburban sprawl, and we insist on commuting silly distances to work. 

There are better ways. 
 

Our current approach is simply unsustainable.

I wonder to what extent we insist vs having it imposed by bad planning decisions?

[Black Panther 1,587]

And the cynic in me says there's someone trying to get their hands on the hammerhead to build apartments and that's why we are seeing this.

[harrytom 643]

Ferry services have cancelled,not just Whangaparoa,Northshore,Waiheke due too not enough staff.Buses had same problem .No drivers and strikes. Why build a non toll rd when the message is use public transport?

Public transport doesnt work in AK for a number f factors but the main one is .AT have changed routes/cut services.To get from home(rosehill to Otahuhu or back of Wiri.I need to catch 3buses,1 from rosehill to papakura township  then change and catch bus to manukau,change again to bus going to my destination.When the 487 use to go pahurehure to papakura to manukau then Downtown via GT South rd.Wanted to go Mangere or onehunga.Change buses at Manukau. The train timetable doesnt coincide with buses,one or the other is delayed or not running at all. 13 minutes by car in peak or 1.25hrs bus/train

If there was a fast ferry with a proper terminal at Gulf harbour the trip could be only 40 minutes,cant /never will be able to do that via public transport or car in peak times 

AT seems great at wasting funds without actually identifying what the public requirements are.Remember yrs ago(1980s) catching ferry from downtown to Devonport and enough time for a beer.

[K4309 257]

12 hours ago, DrWatson said:

The elephant in the room is that we insist on suburban sprawl, and we insist on commuting silly distances to work. 

There are better ways. 
 

Our current approach is simply unsustainable.

This is a common refrain from people who already have warm, dry homes.

[Vivaldi 53]

Auckland is surrounded by water which is essentially free transport infrastructure - future transport planning needs to factor this in and look toward developing a comprehensive ferry service from a range of points around the city. Replacing a ferry service by building a new road (pen link) is just dopey. 

[K4309 257]

1 hour ago, Vivaldi said:

Auckland is surrounded by water which is essentially free transport infrastructure - future transport planning needs to factor this in and look toward developing a comprehensive ferry service from a range of points around the city. Replacing a ferry service by building a new road (pen link) is just dopey. 

They aren't building Penlink just so they can cancel the ferry service. To think so is naïve.

I think you will find that AT can't handle the ferry operator. But there are loads of bus operators so they are easier to push around. Hence AT want buses.