CarpeDiem 449 Posted May 5 Share Posted May 5 Anyone had any exposure to the Orca Core 2? I am thinking about one as a dedicated wind triangle cpu. It has a 100Hz 6 axis attitude sensor built in and according to the marketing it rivals the B&g H5000 + 3D motion sensor for wind triangle calculations. I am currently on the fence between the Triton Edge and the Orca Core 2 but certainly leaning towards the Orca. There's minimal specs on the Edge but I doubt it has a built in attitude sensor as this would canibalize their new Hercules CPU. I currently have a AC12 doing the wind calcs and frankly it's time for an upgrade. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Black Panther 1,607 Posted May 5 Share Posted May 5 I wonder what that is all about Quote Link to post Share on other sites
K4309 281 Posted May 5 Share Posted May 5 18 minutes ago, Black Panther said: I wonder what that is all about Consumerism. Stuff you never knew you wanted, but now simply cannot do without. Oh, and you and exciting ways of spending boat dollars. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Guest 93 Posted May 5 Share Posted May 5 And the holy grail of true wind, or corrected apparent wind for all the things that a seaway and gusting winds throw at the masthead. I have given up swearing at the gnome in the triton, wake up ya barst*d. Not too often, but it happens. Which brings me to the question of wind calc’s . That only in wind mode right? That the AC12/42/NAC2/3 does it. Otherwise the triton does it, right? B&G gear. You can switch the Zeus and AP off and true wind doesn’t change. I’ve only had them for 9yrs, Obviously I don’t need to know, enough. Went without wind mhu for a year after it developed a cable fault and I felt I learnt more about the boats handling than when it was working. 1 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Clipper 346 Posted May 5 Share Posted May 5 The orca looks cool. Even just the chart software orca does is nice. If you choose it, id love to come check it out! Quote Link to post Share on other sites
mcp 32 Posted May 5 Share Posted May 5 Some friends have the Orca core and they really rate it and from what I've seen it's really intuitive and has a nice look. I'm not sure about your use case for it, Quote Link to post Share on other sites
CarpeDiem 449 Posted May 5 Author Share Posted May 5 9 hours ago, Guest said: Which brings me to the question of wind calc’s . That only in wind mode right? That the AC12/42/NAC2/3 does it. Otherwise the triton does it, right? B&G gear. You can switch the Zeus and AP off and true wind doesn’t change. I’ve only had them for 9yrs, Obviously I don’t need to know, enough. I have never thought about using the Triton to calculate the wind triangle. I have Triton 1's. I just treat them as dumb displays. My system is set to Auto and the AC12 is always automatically selected as the source. I always assumed that if the ac12 was off that the source shifted to the Zeus 2. The fact that b&g auto prefer the AC12 over the Zeus tells me I shouldn't be using the Zeus as the source and therefore probably not the Triton 1 either 🤣 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Island Time 1,252 Posted May 5 Share Posted May 5 AC12 is old tech. The wind algorithm in the newer NAC series is heaps better. The B&G systems only do basic wind calcs if you don't have a CPU (Triton Edge or H5000 - Now Hercules). The Triton edge and H5000/Hercules would expect to have a Precision 9 (Roll, pitch, yaw, heave, heading, rate of turn etc) AND a 3D motion sensor (to get rate/speed of roll and pitch) OR a 3d motion sensor and a gyro, so as the CPU can remove the masthead motion in wind calcs. The wind calcs are much more sophisticated and configurable in these than the basic units. Think about this - as the main is powered up, it actually twists the mast - so that the masthead gear no longer points forwards - and therefore the data is wrong. So, on the serious race boats, mast twist sensors are included - TP52's for example, often have three (different levels of the rig) and multiple wind sensors - you will at least seen the long J shaped ones on the Americas cup boats - this is to get away from upwash etc. If you are not going to go to mast twist, 3 D motion sensing etc, then the Triton CPU is fine - unless you have a rotating mast - then the H5000/Hercules is required. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
CarpeDiem 449 Posted May 6 Author Share Posted May 6 1 hour ago, Island Time said: The Triton edge and H5000/Hercules would expect to have a Precision 9 (Roll, pitch, yaw, heave, heading, rate of turn etc) AND a 3D motion sensor (to get rate/speed of roll and pitch) OR a 3d motion sensor and a gyro, so as the CPU can remove the masthead motion in wind calcs. The wind calcs are much more sophisticated and configurable in these than the basic units. Can the Edge have a 3D Motion Sensor connected to it? From what I can tell this requires the Hercules Expansion module? Does the Edge have a built in motion sensor? The reason I am leaning towards the Orca Core is price but also advertised capability. An Edge and Motion Sensor is around $4500... If the hercules expansion pack is needed it's another $1500 While the Orca Core is $1000 and claims to be able to do the same quality wind triangle calc’s that an h5000 with 3d motion can do. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Guest 93 Posted May 6 Share Posted May 6 I don't follow. If the precision nine is not at the mast head where the MHWU is how does it correct AW & AWA for it? At deck or pole it will be damped. I realise not good idea to have GPS up there but not relevant here. If its fast it shouldn't matter with appropriate filter. I have both at MH and deck level fast heading and 3D motion. Never bothered to compare AP's performance with other than deck level source. So you reckon NAC2 could cure S wobbles DW with crossed up following sea Matt? Or Mute them a bit. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
CarpeDiem 449 Posted May 6 Author Share Posted May 6 51 minutes ago, Guest said: I don't follow. If the precision nine is not at the mast head where the MHWU is how does it correct AW & AWA for it? At deck or pole it will be damped. I realise not good idea to have GPS up there but not relevant here. If its fast it shouldn't matter with appropriate filter. I have both at MH and deck level fast heading and 3D motion. Never bothered to compare AP's performance with other than deck level source. So you reckon NAC2 could cure S wobbles DW with crossed up following sea Matt? Or Mute them a bit. The p9 is 10Hz and it doesn't output rates for heave, trim or heel, these are static values. When the mast height and attitude sensor location in the boat relative to the mhu are entered into the CPU, it can "substract" the angular velocity of the mhu from the measured wind angle and direction. Then you are measuring wind speed and direction as if the mhu was static (aka apparent). A+T have a MHU with a built in motion sensor, this does the calculations at the MHU and so the AWA and AWS are then "correct" when they are output. I can't see that the processor in the Edge is fast enough to be able to use the 3d motion sensor output which is about 50Hz - already people are reporting that when one enables start line features the wind broadcasts drop from 10Hz on the N2K bus. I can't find any documentation to support that the 3d motion sensor can be utilised by the edge :-( The more I write the more I am talking myself into the Orca lol Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Clipper 346 Posted May 6 Share Posted May 6 If it does all they say, its not bad value 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
waikiore 410 Posted May 6 Share Posted May 6 I believe all this gobbledegook is telling me that I am a luddite with my wool on the stays and tillerpilot steering straight from an old masthead unit. 2 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
waikiore 410 Posted May 6 Share Posted May 6 Hang on now, I have just recalled through the mists of time winning a B&G international sales award back in the Whitbread days with Hercules gear, think I prefer a basic Windex now. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Island Time 1,252 Posted May 6 Share Posted May 6 55 minutes ago, waikiore said: Hang on now, I have just recalled through the mists of time winning a B&G international sales award back in the Whitbread days with Hercules gear, think I prefer a basic Windex now. Hercules have been around for 3 generations now. Just to confuse the issue, the H5000 had a model called Hercules (and 2 others), and now the replacement for the H5000 is called Hercules. Don't ask me why, it's confusing!! Sorry I cannot currently answer the question about 3D sensor on a Triton Edge - I've only ever done them with the H5000's. I have asked B&G/Navico for an official answer, and will post here when I receive it. 3 hours ago, Guest said: o you reckon NAC2 could cure S wobbles DW with crossed up following sea Matt? Or Mute them a bit. If you are using a AC12 or 42, the main issue in steering downhill is a fluxgate or (slightly better) a RC300 - which is a rate compass, but still a fluxgate. The single biggest improvement you can make is a new compass - like the precision 9 - it's solid state, and gives MUCH more accurate and stable heading output to the AP computer, and therefore results in a much better course. I noticed that most in a quartering sea. If you want that AND better wind steering, then change the ACXX to a NACX (The X's are just the model to suit your boat) I'll post the 3D sensor/Triton Edge stuff when I get it... 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Island Time 1,252 Posted May 6 Share Posted May 6 3 hours ago, CarpeDiem said: I can't see that the processor in the Edge is fast enough to be able to use the 3d motion sensor output which is about 50Hz Just a side note - how do you know what the triton edge processor actually is? I don't and its not in the published data that I can see? Also, the current model 3d Motion sensor is N2K certified, has a standard micro C connection, and the B&G system builder lets it connect with the Triton Edge, so I suspect the answer will be it works fine. For most people no processor is required. For serious club racers The Triton edge is easier to configure and less complex than the Hercules, which is really designed for pro navigators in race teams. The WTP3 processor is for linux geeks... Quote Link to post Share on other sites
K4309 281 Posted May 6 Share Posted May 6 OK, serious question this time. I have a Nexus NX2 system, and my masthead wind transducer has shat itself (end of life, between 10-15 years old). The wired Garmin gWind is a straight swap for it. The rest of the system is still working fine (noting I've blown FETs in the AP controller twice, and installed an aftermarket circuit board fuse) If one other things shits itself on my nexus gear (long out of production) I may be compelled to do a full replacement, and probably with B&G gear. My current nexus system has a solid state compass. It is a while since I purchased it, but it is at least 3 axis and a big step up over a flux-gate compass. It's purpose is to compensate for pitch, yaw and roll to get more stable data on everything else (heading, wind etc). My question is, what is the actual benefit of all this stuff you guys are talking about? As in, what is the benefit of an Orca Core2? I'm after the practical difference here, not the difference between 10Hz and 50Hz processing. Are you trying to get an autopilot that can drive faster than you can in all sea states? Or do you feel your current auto-pilot has limitations that materially affect using it on certain wind angles and sea conditions? Or do you feel you current wind readings are inaccurate due to pitch and roll of the masthead unit? - on that, hasn't the time proven solution been to just increase the dampening time? (good for stable wind reading, maybe not so good for highly response Vendee Globe standard autopilot) Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Island Time 1,252 Posted May 6 Share Posted May 6 Pretty much if the accuracy of your existing systems (when working!) was fine for you, then you don't need a processor system. If though, you want to know the exact wind angle on the next leg, you want or have polars, and you have sail crossover points to within a couple of degrees and knots, then more accurate info will make you sail faster.... 2 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
CarpeDiem 449 Posted May 6 Author Share Posted May 6 3 minutes ago, Island Time said: Just a side note - how do you know what the triton edge processor actually is? I don't and its not in the published data that I can see? Good point IT, I do not. And even if I did know the spec I couldn't assume it from the spec... I am basing my assumption on the several reports I have read that when the start line functionality with polar is enabled, the wind calc triangle output drops and this is visible on an n2k bus trace. Hence the unit appears to become overloaded. It will definitely be great to know if the 3dms can be utilized in the wind triangle calcs by the Edge. Thank you very much for following this up with B&G - I messaged them a fortnight ago and have heard nothing Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Island Time 1,252 Posted May 6 Share Posted May 6 1 minute ago, CarpeDiem said: Good point IT, I do not. And even if I did know the spec I couldn't assume it from the spec... I am basing my assumption on the several reports I have read that when the start line functionality with polar is enabled, the wind calc triangle output drops and this is visible on an n2k bus trace. Hence the unit appears to become overloaded. It will definitely be great to know if the 3dms can be utilized in the wind triangle calcs by the Edge. Thank you very much for following this up with B&G - I messaged them a fortnight ago and have heard nothing Yep, fair enough, but I'd say that even once a second is plenty for start line maneuvers - there is a LOT of calcs goin on for that, all at sub second intervals, and how many course changes can you do in a sec anyway . Navico support has become less efficient since the Brunswick takeover... Quote Link to post Share on other sites
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