Chinese sailmakers

[Guest]

I just got a random email, one of 10 or so I get each day, but this one was from a Chinese sail making outfit. They said just fill out these forms and we'll knock you up some sails in no time flat for bugger all money. Blaa blaa blaa about using good stuff and mentioned many good names i.e. Bainbridge and the likes.

 

I know some locals get stuff cut there but they do specify what to use, send shapes and so on. I was just pondering what sort of sails you'd get if you fired the paperwork back to them. It was all about measurements but did ask about the area you would use them in with regards to wind strengths and so on, also asked for a fair bit of info about the boat. Maybe they do what they do with that and work a shape accordingly. You even got to choose what colours and so on for kites and gennies. It was quite intriguing really, knot that I'm going there. Hard to take them back and say tweak please. Another reason was that another product line they were big on was inflatable marine toys, no knot a blow up 'anatomically correct she whales' you sickos, them tow toys thingys.

 

An interesting twist and possibly one that the NZ and other sailmakers should be concerned about maybe??

[Kestrahl 6]

In Asia there are production lofts managed by europeans producing sails for all the big brands (North, Hyde, Doyle, Q, etc) that have good quality control and are effectively just taking advantage of the low labour cost. But its unlikely you are going to be able to buy sails from these lofts direct from some website, so its probably some dodgy locally run outfit that has a few ex-staff from one of the european run lofts.

[Steve Pope 243]

there is a current post on CF re sails out of the east, Lee sails and Far east Sails have been making good cruising sails for the last 40 years or more, many satisfied customers at prices delivered at about 50% of what you would pay here. Roly Tasker is another one who works out of Thailand. Many (most?) of the big players have their sails cut over there and airfreighted to the local loft for building or just finishing.

[Murky 1]

Sorry for signing you up to their website KM - I feel almost guilty now. Hopefully the Viagra and fake watches will be more to your liking.

[Fogg 427]

I know some long term cruisers who came into NZ a couple of years ago and needed a new set of sails after their tired set blew out in during the tail end of a cyclone coming down from the islands. They got a couple of quotes from local NZ sailmakers which gave them palpitations (although by now they were used to contractors seeing a 72ft yacht and delivering a big $$$s invoice). They then got a quote from a Hong Kong loft who promised to make them to spec and arrange corrections if required, at a price about 40% of the NZ price (inc shipping). When the HK set arrived we were pleasantly surprised to find them exactly to spec and they fitted without any alterations. OK so they were heavy duty cruising cloth, nothing too racey or sexy but they seem to be doing the job fine.

[idlerboat 116]

Bought my main from Far East Sails in Hong Kong.

$1600 air delivered to my door.

The sail is a full three reef cruising main.

A localy made sail (I got a heap of quotes) was well over double (and some where tripple) that amount.

SO ..I took the risk.

The sail is fantastic. Not a stitch out of line and the cut is just right...

I would have rather have bought localy, but the differance was another months cruising....

 

As an aside.....The local quote for a boom bag was more than $100 a meter.

I bought the material, cut it to size and shape, and got a local horse rug and truck tarp seamstress to put it together.

The result was a great succsess and much cheaper.

Not dishing, sailmakers, but the seamstress put the whole thing together at a blinding speed. Perfect straight lines, and she even upsized my velcro to super size stuff....

[Guest]

Gotta feel sorry for NZ companies.

 

By the time they:

- Absorb annual leave costs

- Absorb sick leave costs

- Pay ACC

- Pay import this that and the other duties

- etc

- etc

- etc

 

It's hard to see 'em being competitive with some offshore operations that don't have to.

[tuffyluffy 76]

Gotta feel sorry for NZ companies.

 

By the time they:

- Absorb annual leave costs

- Absorb sick leave costs

- Pay ACC

- Pay import this that and the other duties

- etc

- etc

- etc

 

It's hard to see 'em being competitive with some offshore operations that don't have to.

 

Unfortunately its the way of the future Wineglass. Commoditsied manufacturing will increasingly head to lower cost markets. Local bods will simply provide feet on the gound to facilitate the offshored service.

 

As an asside, you should see the vast moves commercial entities are making to offshore all sorts of key back-office business functions. Basically if your job resides in the admin/processing side of a business, it'll soon be offshored to India, China et al. Soon you'll see Ma and Pa companies getting their accounts functions managed in China.

 

If you think insuance claims, application processing, accounts payable etc etc functions need to be done in NZ, think again.

[ScottiE 174]

its classic that this discussion is occuring while not too far away this http://crew.org.nz/forum/viewtopic.php?f=45&t=16686 discussion is occuring!

[Guest]

I was wondering more about sail shapes out of there. I know some have got good sails from there, also with a few who haven't.

 

Knot to sure you're prediction will pan out quite like that Tuffy. There has been a lot of outfits both here and abroad who have been pulling things back from places like that to their assorted home countries. Vodaph being just one here recently.

 

Also it's knot all about low wages anymore. Chinas are going up like a rocket, as is many of their raw materials etc so again many are looking at keeping stuff home rather than making offshore. The Chinese can't continue as they are and they know that and are heavily doing something about it. It'll be interesting to watch it all pan out of the next few years and I suspect China will go the exact same way Japan did and Taiwan did after that. Chatting to a mate last week who was just back from Taiwan, $12 for a coffee there now.

 

But while that happens smaller volume economies like NZ's are going to get a bit of a beating with some commodity goods, but knot so in the low volume high quality market, china just doesn't do that well yet.

[tuffyluffy 76]

Knot to sure you're prediction will pan out quite like that Tuffy. There has been a lot of outfits both here and abroad who have been pulling things back from places like that to their assorted home countries. Vodaph being just one here recently.

 

 

Your quite correct on front office functions eg, call centres, customer services etc where there have been a few bad calls, what im refering to is back office functions, these are moving offshore at a rapid rate of knots.

 

If you send an invoice to one of the big banks for a service/good you've supplied, its is currently, or soon will be processed and approved in China or India. Same with credit card approvals, finance company approvals etc etc.

 

You don’t hear about these migrations because there is no customer interaction, they work, and there is no positive reason for the customer/public to know

[markm 30]

Err, not sure on all that Tuffy and I'm pretty closely tied to one of those banks. If it's happening, they're keeping it real quiet if the staff don't know.

 

Wouldn't count on the concept working, for some of the stuff you've mentioned i doubt it's even legal.

[Murky 1]

It just makes me wonder what our naughty local sailmakers* are doing with all that extra money.

 

Surely the answer could not be as simple as supporting local yachting.

 

* with apologies for favouring only one loft - this was just a quick cast through the recent events that I could remember.

[Murky 1]

And of course the Piedy nats as well.

 

Also highlights that we have a very shallow sponsor pool.

[wheels 543]

I would think (guessing here) that if you have a regular no frills common production boat, then continuing to make a reasonable sail would be fairly easy once you have made one or two.

I imagine that for most all boats, a standard "shape" with an OK performance would be fairly straight forward (for a sailmaking loft).

But I would think that if you want a sail with that edge on performance and into the range of racing, then I would imagine that you could only achieve that by having an experienced sailmaker that understands sail shape and boat performance and that said sailmaker would need to actually sail the boat and view sail and make any adjustments as required.

I have only heavy air sails. I have nothing for light air and would certainly like something.I would love a code 0 headsail, but 10K or more is just out of the question. 40% cheaper is reachable.

I biult my own Boom Bag. It cost me a total of $600 for materials and a mate(canvas worker) that sowed it together for me. Next to the Furler, one of the best things I ever fitted. However, there were little "points" I wish I had done different and I guess that is the difference that an experienced sailmaker or Marine canvas worker has over a plain ole Canvas worker and that is probably what you are paying for.

Canvas worker mate gave me cost of making a new surround for the back of the Pilot house with tinted sides panels. He supplied material ansd sowed it together for $600. A local marine canvas worker had quoted me toward the thick end of $2K. So I think deals can be had in NZ too, if you look around and step outside of the norm. However, that experience of an marine sailmaker can sometimes be worth the difference.

Oh and remember, sailmakers and usually somewhere in a Marina. Marinas usually have a tendancy to charge big lease costs, so sometimes marine industries are expensive due to where they are located. Either that, or pay for time and milage of salmaker comeing to boat.

[idlerboat 116]

...as I said in my post, going off shore to buy sails is a risk.

My preference would have been for a local purchase.

 

The few big and well known OS lofts, would be hard to beat on price by anybody. (anywhere).

They have huge computer controlled cutters and automated process systems.

They produce sails for major production line boats , so have a rediculous economy of scale.

One of them is the largest single purchaser of sail cloth in the world.

A lot of sail lofts buy "wholesale" from these lofts and put their own badge on them.

 

For me, it was the choice of buying a second hand sail or a new one. If I had the money, I would have loved to have had a long conversation, discusing all the options and ideas...the first fit and test, and the knowlege that I could drive 15 minutes if there was a problem.

 

Its a bit like the cover that I bought for my electronic book.

Do I pay $38 here or $5 including postage on ebay.

I dont think that this sort of thing is going to keep going as Chinas economy changes.

[wheels 543]

Actually, IB brings up a point. Second hand new, or New but second hand. The number of new sails that end up not being quite right and then sold for peanuts in places like Sail loft. It is wise to call places like that first before doing anything eles. Our Genoa was brand spanking new, about $5 or 6K's worth and we got the thing for $500 and about $100 of changes to fit our boat and bingo, one brand Furling headsail.