Rules Question

[ballystick 73]

What is other peoples view of when you are on starboard, hard on the wind and not within 3 boat lengths of a mark and a port tacker comes up and tacks right in front of you. It then sheets in fully but is not up to full speed, as you approach their rear end because you are travelling at full speed, you have to either luff or dip to avoid hitting their transom?? Its not ethical or sportsmanlike if it is legal and its happened to me in the last two races by the same boat (a Y88 ). What are your views?? Solutions?

[Guest]

They aren't doing anything illegal and if it's in a race isn't the idea that you try to slow your competitor down if you have the chance?

 

May knot be nice and piss you right off but that's racing.

[Guest]

No question. Dip and luff him up. Rule 11 and 15. If he comes in, tacks and then sails more slowly than you and you establish an overlap tp leeward, he becomes keep clear boat. He cannot claim that he should be given a chance to fulfil any obligation to keep clear because it was his own action that got him there. Take him to the room because the decision will be with you.

[Guest]

Im with gbr on this one. Just make sure you do it before you get to the 2 boat length mark. If you cant dip and luff in time try and luff and see if you can get to the mark with a overlap to windward and make him let you in If that doesnt work, you could allways try threatening them with a spud cannon

[MarkMT 68]

Sailing by the rules so as to disadvantage your competitor is not ethical??

[wheels 543]

There is no such thing as "Ethical" in racing. There are clear black and white rules. They get greyed and smugy looking via interpretation and your point of view and perhaps in such a situation, you might say, he was closer than the 2 boat rule and he may say he had plenty of room and you could dispute that argument, in which the committee would rule on the protest. But if a manouver was within the rules, then that is part of the game and reality is, he beat you at the rounding and you came second to round the mark. That's part of racing. A good call of judgment and position on his part. Now you need to learn from that and be a little more agressive and competitive and do the same to them or others.

Remember, the fastest boat is not always the winner in a yacht race. Yacht racing is as much about stratigy as it is about boat speed.

[Atom Ant 0]

The main point to take from the original post is that it is a bloody Y88 driver that's doing it. Shotgun blast below the waterline ought to solve the problem!

[wheels 543]

Depends though AA. What boat does Ballystick have?? It may well be that we should be applauding the Y88.

[sick of it 0]

Guys.

 

It is now 3 boat lengths. I almost feel they encouraged the Port Tackers with this rule change.

[ballystick 73]

Good to hear the discussion, I have a N30 after a R930M which tends to be a bit slower than Y88 so AA is probably right, with a below waterline intrusion. normally people will tack just underneath you and try to spit you out, which is more acceptable. His being a slightly quicker boat (Y88)that can point slightly higher - N30 vs Y88 so he can escape using height as needed. It seems that it is within the law but both times he has been so close I couldn't tell if I was to touch him, fellow competitors said it was within 150mm so that is close. I guess he just has good judgement. I tried last time to bear down with sails still trimmed to get him to tack early and go up as he tacks but he still pulled it off!! It may not happen again for a while. As far as ethical I suppose there isn't any in racing but I don't want to hit him and the distances are so close that it is hard too judge, when it comes to this area most people allow for more pilot error.

It has been both times outside the 3 boat length - just -so he's doing it "well"

Maybe I can just take some credit for being in front for a while as generally I think a Y88 is a faster boat than a cruising, diesel N30??

[ballystick 73]

I agree, Sickofit the 3 boat length has encouraged the port tackers even though that's not the case here, I understand what KM says also, cheers??!!

[PaulR 3]

It would be a well known FACT that no 88 would try this in front of a S34 because the S34 would knot even knotice the bump.

 

 

Only Pioneer with decades of experience would attempt such a foolish tack and the duck tape on her port transom is visible proof this can happen first race after a 2 year refit. The old S34 godfather fella was warned, but luckily I was knot involved

[otto 31]

"dip and luff" ???

I doubt it and unless you have dropped well to leward before coming up to luff that would be against the rules.

[PaulR 3]

The RRS rules & casebook state that the yacht on port tack has TWO duties, not just one.

 

FIRST: GIVE WAY

 

SECOND: KEEP CLEAR

 

So port tack needs to alter course to avoid collision by either dipping, tacking away or slowing down.

Slowing down :

What a strange International Collision Prevention idea

 

Then if tacking, KEEP CLEAR and not interfer with starboard tack boat.

 

The moment the starboard boat has to alter its course to avoid the port boat, then the port boat has NOT kept clear. It need only be a percieved danger by the starboard boat.

 

Then the arguements develop because if the port boat mainsail has filled, he is now on starboard, in front of a faster overtaking boat, that now has to keep clear.

 

The instance the original starboard boat has to alter course, the port boat can claim that there is a new course, no longer holding the original course and therefore the now following boat is overtaking and therefore has to keep clear.

 

Then the International Collision Prevention rules can also apply.

 

Sadly it seems the RRS rules are encouraging such conditions.

Time to get the experts International Judges et al involved.

WHAT No experienced Americas Cup lawyers in your crew

 

The practical (but stupid) solution for the starboard boat seems to actually hit the port boat that has just tacked to "prove" that the port boat did NOT KEEP CLEAR, protest, make insurance claim(s) and harbourmasters / MSA report and heaps of verbal as well. Enjoy

 

Of course there is the Admiral Lord Nelson's approach of putting one's telescope to one's blind eye. Has worked in the past

 

These days the bigger the ("disposable?") prod, the more you are avoided, dipped and KEPT CLEAR of;

 

as the actress said to the bishop

[AJ Oliver 154]

Yeah, I was involved in one of those last year. Came into the mark on port and tried to tack both below and in front of the boat on starboard. Starboard protested, and lost. The ruling was that we had completed our tack before starboard altered course. (It was not clear to us that starboard did have to change course, but they claimed that they did.)

 

Starboard's response after the hearing was to tell us, loudly, that if we ever did that again, he would "run up our transom". There was also some grabbing, pushing and cursing. Nice. It's one thing to stand up for one's racing rights, but it's another thing to try to intimidate.

 

Port-starboard situations at the mark seem to arise more in some fleets. Lots of J-24's around here (midwest U.S.) are pretty aggressive in sticking it in there when they come in on port. The INFORMAL rule seems to be that it's OK as long as starboard's approach to the mark is not impeded. Protests in that fleet are rare.

 

A related question: Based on sailing in only a few rum races in New Zealand, it seems to me that Kiwi behavior on the race course is gracious and sportsmanlike compared to many sailors from other countries. Is this correct?

[Guest]

[

A related question: Based on sailing in only a few rum races in New Zealand, it seems to me that Kiwi behavior on the race course is gracious and sportsmanlike compared to many sailors from other countries. Is this correct?

 

Can't vouch for Westhaven but out in the countryside it's correct because half the fleet don't have a rule book! Truly. So it tends to be that people generally stay out of each others way. However it's also bloody dangerous. We had a blatant Port Starboard a couple of weeks ago and despite calls etc had to dump everything off in a great hurry. When the guy was tackled in the bar.....

 

"didn't see any problem, you managed to go round the back of me"

 

Speechless was an understatement.

[Guest]

Bally stick

 

the y88 was quite within his rights to do what he did.

 

Now lets look at a solution to the problem. If another boat has the oportunity to tack just under your leward bow and still round the mark you were obviously overlayed. being on the layline will prevent other boats comming and tacking just to leward of you as they won't be able to lay the mark or will hit the mark giving them a penalty and the lead back to you. Very hard to do I know but will work everytime. People don't try hard enough to be right on the layline. it is a win win situation. you sail less distance and port tackers have no option but to dip and tack on your weather hip. Money or the bag!!!!

[Atom Ant 0]

A related question: Based on sailing in only a few rum races in New Zealand, it seems to me that Kiwi behavior on the race course is gracious and sportsmanlike compared to many sailors from other countries. Is this correct?

I agree with your summation of the situation, at least as gbr933 (what kind of a name is that?) says it. When I used to race in town I found it quite different, and seemingly a few individuals were prepared to hit you to have what they believed was their right of way.

 

Up at Weiti almost without exception, people will do their utmost to avoid any maneuvre that will bring boats within too close a proximity - the reason for this is obvious. That is, that their boats are also the family bach (holiday home for AJ) and they need it to be available for holidays etc. Agreed also alot of them don't know the rules too well...

[ballystick 73]

Thats a good answer Send It, that's what I tried to do, in fact I think I had the layline but only just. He tacked close to the 3 boat length and as I said I had to avoid him, he was close hauled and in the high pointing mode which is just a bit higher than a Noelex 30 seems to be able (for me anyway) go especially at low speeds. They just got around the mark and this time I decided to dip so as to keep the speed, last time I luffed and he did the same and it didn't work out so well. So as I approached the mark with an outgoing tide (so I just found out then as it was on the change) it was looking marginal whether I was to get around so I kept the pace on as much as possible and tried to shoot it, it ended with the boat in irons but just enough to get around, despite a rampaging Stewart 34 attacking me, finally around two boats passed me in the process. I will remember it for next time, so I was looking for ideas from the forum.

Next time, if ever again I will tack early just before the layline, if he slam dunks me I will tack away and to approach within the 3 boat zone so he can't come back, if he dips I will tack close so he can't come back on starboard so I will lead him around the mark - how about that?

[AJ Oliver 154]

This animation may describe (and analyze pretty well) the port-starboard mark rounding situation being discussed here.

 

http://game.finckh.net/situat/tit_gbr/s63_e.htm

 

Other than actually bashing about on the race course, this app is a good way to learn some of the rules. It is quite well done.

 

I agree with whoever said that there are lots of people racing out there who have only a vague idea, at best, about the rules.

 

On the other hand, some peeps get really carried away with the rulebook. I really hate it when skippers litigate their way around the race course. Fortunately, that is quite rare in our neck of the woods.