Insuring Multihulls

[Mothership 6]

John, what's the difference between this and hopping in your car, and crashing into someone and expecting to get away scott free?

 

Bear in mind, money or no money, things can still be made very uncomfortable for you if your actions warrant it.

 

From a legal perspective, given your attitude here and on the race course, there's plenty of evidence for a case of deliberate and/or negligent behaviour to be be brought if a crash involving you on the race course were to occur.

[Megwyn 2]

Do i remember a multi owner in Tauranga at the Matakana Raid saying he would not be racing purely because he can't get insurance?

 

I seem to remember that conversation too Ogre - although there was rum invovled I believe there is one cat in Tga who does not race for that reason - or it may be that he does not have race cover . . .

 

We do not race RO as she only effectively has 3rd party. Hopefully we too will not loose that when it comes up for renewal . . . but it is not sounding hopeful from what people are saying here.

 

I believe a couple of multi owners in Tga have managed to get insurance through State . . .

 

M

[Guest]

Do i remember a multi owner in Tauranga at the Matakana Raid saying he would not be racing purely because he can't get insurance?

 

I seem to remember that conversation too Ogre - although there was rum invovled

M

 

Which is why I posed it as a question rather than a statement of fact

[Hurts 6]

From a legal perspective, given your attitude here and on the race course, there's plenty of evidence for a case of deliberate and/or negligent behaviour to be be brought if a crash involving you on the race course were to occur.

What a load of crap. He's not choosing to go uninsured, he hasn't even made lots of claims, or done the tumbling boat thing - I'd put money on the fact he's not the only one without 3rd party he's just up front about it. It wound be a good thing for everyone to have a open discussion amongst owners about insurance and the protocols around when boats come together.

[Hurts 6]

Open discussion means at nzmyc not here...

[Mothership 6]

From a legal perspective, given your attitude here and on the race course, there's plenty of evidence for a case of deliberate and/or negligent behaviour to be be brought if a crash involving you on the race course were to occur.

What a load of crap. He's not choosing to go uninsured, he hasn't even made lots of claims, or done the tumbling boat thing - I'd put money on the fact he's not the only one without 3rd party he's just up front about it. It wound be a good thing for everyone to have a open discussion amongst owners about insurance and the protocols around when boats come together.

 

Fair points. What I was trying to highlight is if for any reason one can't get insurance, at least take this into consideration when on the race course.

 

The idea of self-insuring, including house, car etc (as boats alone, there's just not the numbers), or clubbing together and going to an existing insurer. These avenues should be pursued, as the writing is on the wall and could prove to be the only means of insuring a multihull in the future in this country.

[Locust 0]

It is interesting how conversations here regularly seem to degrade to finger pointing and petty remarks. This is a serious issue for not only small multi hulls racing but really for all boats on the Harbor. Like it or not we are all impacted by the insurances companies current position. Intended or unintended they are effectively pushing owners into a very difficult position, not one that they necessarily want to be in. I for one would not want to trade spots.

 

Some appear to be saying don’t race which logically extends to don’t sail.

 

What are we saying to these owners, sell up move on? This will only be moving the issue to the guy that buys the boat. The rest of us are still in the same boat (so to speak). Who is going to buy an uninsurable boat in any case?

 

Is not sailing/not racing a real expectation? What would your position be if you had a boat and could not use it for the want of insurance?

 

This is a serious situation and deserves open and frank discussion. It is hard to see a workable solution but we should all be pushing for a workable solution.

 

While JohnMi does appear to be cavalier I’m not convinced that this is not the response many would take. They may just not be as vocal/honest.

 

Lastly what does this mean for Ian Farrier? Does this arbitrary decision from the insurance industry make his business model unworkable? As noted above who is going to buy an uninsurable boat?

[Guest]

just as a thought....to add to this evolving story line.....

 

I am pretty sure that if you rent a berth in a marina you need to have proof of insurance (though I am sure they dont check).

 

so this gives a fair idea of how many boats do have insurance of some sort...... at least to cover any liability in the marina ? ?

 

Not sure if the same insurance rules apply to boats stored in the carparks....but likely that they would ....... john could probably confirm for us.

[Guest]

They do apply for boats in car parks - Energy is on a trailer and yes they check and the cert must come directly from the insurer....not hot off the laser printer at home

 

Westhaven hassled me for weeks by email and txt. Maybe they singled me out cos I'm perceived to be a liability...

 

And given Orakei is also a council facility I would expect that we should all be treated the same way and would have

something to say about if we weren't.

[Guest]

I am pretty sure that if you rent a berth in a marina you need to have proof of insurance (though I am sure they dont check).

Yeap they do and they are starting to with some vigor. I think any slackness you are seeing could simple be a council thing as most of the non-council marinas are quite anal about you proving you have cover.

 

But all they want is you to cover the marina in case your boat goes bad and hurts either the marina or other boats in it so I suppose all you really need for that is 3rd party. They don't give a rats bum if John takes out Vodaboat or anything that happens outside the marina walls. I'm guessing but 3rd party for a boat knot moving tied in a berth should be OK to get I would expect. It's knot like the boat has to be of sound mind and body or even seaworthy.

 

So I'm knot to sure you can connect 'marina' and 'sailing' and/or possibly 'sailing 3rd party' insurance together that well as they would need top cover quite differing things I'd expect.

 

I mention this as all that maybe a thing to remember when chatting to Insurance dudes about it all i.e. rather than try for 'blanket cover' maybe try for a specific part only...... then a month or 2 later try to add on a little more. Full or lots of cover by stealth

 

I don't envy you multi dudes with this lot, it does seem to be a total arse it shouldn't have to be. Good luck with it all.

[ab1974 1]

Locust, you are right this is a significant issue that does require some heads to come together to resolve.

 

The petty issues as you put it are really aimed at John's attitude - which is bugger it if I have no insurance that it the insurance companies that caused it and I wont pay if I cause damage. Rightly or wrongly society expects you to take responsibility for your actions.

[Adrianp 120]

They do apply for boats in car parks - Energy is on a trailer and yes they check and the cert must come directly from the insurer....not hot off the laser printer at home

 

Westhaven hassled me for weeks by email and txt. Maybe they singled me out cos I'm perceived to be a liability...

 

And given Orakei is also a council facility I would expect that we should all be treated the same way and would have

something to say about if we weren't.

 

Same for High n Fibre at Westhaven, and I believe "The Landing" at Okahu bay is administered by Westhaven too.

 

Having just been through a start line collision where the mast on my $15,000 sportboat went through a $25,000 Mainsail, I'm pretty glad to have insurance to fall back on. Even though we thought we were in the right, and the Protest Committee have backed that up, it was stressful enough without having to deal with the thought of significant personal financial loss too.

 

John, I feel for your position, but if it were me, I wouldn't be racing without insurance. It just not worth the heart attack that will come with the stress when you, or someone else, screws up!

 

I have to say, my 10 year plan of building a Farrier 8.5 has gone up in smoke with Ian stopping selling plans and these insurance issues.

[johnMi 2]

I am NOT expecting others to be financially out of pocket, apart from the insurance companies, and if the insurance companies would play ball they too would be free of loss when I damage one of their insured boats.

I am actively seeking third party, but till now still no luck.

I am racing in the Nexus Gold Cup next week if I have cover or not.

 

The only thing that you risk with my attitude is the effect of the damage I have done (along with the thousands of other claims made against other uninsured boats (a couple maybe), the dismastings, collisions, sinkings etc etc) to the overall profits the insurance companies want to make. My 'cavalier' attitude would not even add 1 cent to your premium, even if I sunk your $5,000,000 boat.

 

So please don't give me your dumb arse argument that I am costing you all money with my 'Cavalier' attitude. I am costing some Insurance company a headache, that they could avoid by giving me third party.

 

I am the one that's taking all the risk, you as others, none,

 

Rightly or wrongly society expects you to take responsibility for your actions.

/quote]

 

I have on countless occasions said I would cover boatie's excesses. With the attitude I'm getting, I wonder if I should bother. (Then you've got something to bleat about)

 

I know of others that race without insurance, Timberwolf is one, there will be countless others.

[Locust 0]

High'n'fibre

 

Are you saying that it is ok to sail without insurance just not ok to race? Surely taking the no insurance discussion to its logical end means don't sail at all. As I see it the only difference is the level of risk and your stomach for that risk. Johnmi's level is a little higher than most but it seems there are many that sail with out insurance and think it is ok.

[Guest]

For donkeys years the vast majority of offshore cruisers sailed with out insurance. You learn to be very careful.

[Locust 0]

This is true, I would not doubt that historically most raced without insurance also. This thread however seems to indicate that most people are ok to sail without insurance just not race. The only difference is risk and what you are happy to take on. I find it very interesting that Johnmi seems to be being singled out for his forced acceptance of more risk (remember he is unable to obtain insurance). The difference is only perceived risk. What is riskier sailing in a race or sailing offshore? Everyone's answer will be different.

 

One thing to remember in this whole discussion is that if not now it would seem that within a short period most if not all of the 8.5 fleet will be in the same position. Who is going to want them in a regatta?

[johnMi 2]

Well Locust, this brings up a very interesting situation.

At the moment it seems to be Tris, so is the multi fleet going to drop to cats only.

And if so, will the cats still sail with the tris (that are not insured.

 

It would be interesting to see who would race in my situation

So let me know who would and who wouldn't

BooBoo and Booger, I haven't had a reply back from you two yet.

 

But then it will boil out like this

 

Those who don't answer this question don't do so for the following reasons.

1. They would do as I do, but are afraid of the vitriol coming from other sailors

2. They wouldn't, but won't say so because they are scared to be thought of as wimps by other sailors

 

HNF has been up front and say's he wouldn't

Me and Timberwolf say we would (and do)

[Hurts 6]

I have a tri and have full insurance incl for racing I hope this situation will continue . To some extent I think insurance companies and racing don't really mix - what happens with racing cars I wonder? I don't think they have insurance? Do they shagg about trying to figure out who is at fault or just yell abuse at each other, fix thier own cars and go racing again? They must have some protocols figured out. On a long race there's not much point in getting too aggressive at the start but with a short windward leeward a good start is kind of mandatory and there will be collisions if people are taking it seriously.

[B00B00 310]

John, it is generally accepted ( as far as I understood it anyway)that in a smaller racing multihull (and probably bigger ones too) that once you have claimed you will struggle to find insurance again. I broke a main beam, seagull and dolphin striker, 2 prods, 2 centerboards and 2 rudders, trashed a kite ( and did it twice on the stealth mission too), ripped the side of my cockpit off, among many other bits. I did not claim for anything , just fixed it For me although we had full cover I just wanted it for the 3rd party or total loss.

I under stand your predicament and how it was not your fault (your side of the story) and I do feel you for both the time off the water and the problem you now face but the way you presented your argument is just plain offensive.

I sold my 8.5, I could see this issue coming a long way off and I would or could not have risked to race with out insurance. Nothing of mine is in a trust and my family (3 kids as of last friday) depends on me to put a roof over their head.

For you to say that our insurance companys can get stuffed and that you would try and screw them even if you were totally at fault is an insult. Not only would we loose our insurance after claiming but we would also put our brokers in a really bad situation dealing with you. Some of us are friends with our insurance companys/brokers and have a good thing going with mutural respect and would like to keep it that way. I know for one that my insurance broker(for my keelboat) will be reading this and saying thank god I don't still have the 8.5 as he wouldn't want to have anything to do with the class. Some of us also have boat(s) cars, home and contents, and life insurance all with the same guy.

You are not helping the cause at all john and I for one am glad I don't still own a boat in the fleet that you sail in.

I have seen you go upwind with your screecher in some strong breeze and thought man you are putting some load on the gear. I know that just about anyone of the 8.5s could break gear if they tried the same thing. My GBE would fold in half.

Not saying this is what caused the rig failure but saying that I do think you are somewhat reckless on the water and I'm not suprised that you are now struggling to get insurance. Your thread about single handed sailing with extras in 35kts is a classic example..... Not to mention all the close calls and colisions and arguments you have been involved in.

You aked for my opinion again so there it is- straight up. I wasn't going to get involved again but being called a wimp and brought back into this several times forced me to.

[johnMi 2]

Thanks BooBoo

 

Thats 2 yes, 2 no.