Guest Posted September 13, 2012 Share Posted September 13, 2012 Has anybody had any experience with this unit. Need to replace the autopilot on our Farr 11.6 and have been looking at getting one. Link to post Share on other sites
Kiteroa 8 Posted September 13, 2012 Share Posted September 13, 2012 I have one on WT. It's way too big for the boat, but I wanted something lively that would check the boat around on a pressed reach. Pretty nice unit and having the gyro on the keel floors helps a lot. For sure a step up on the cheaper units. Got mine from Beacon marine down in westhaven. Talk to Simon. Link to post Share on other sites
Fogg 427 Posted September 13, 2012 Share Posted September 13, 2012 My experience with Raymarine autopilots is: 1. Don't do it 2. If you are gonna do it buy a system with a gyro or else you might as well ask a seagull to steer the boat. Oh and build a good relationship with the nice, helpful service guys at L&B cos you'll be seeing a lot of them. Link to post Share on other sites
Kiteroa 8 Posted September 13, 2012 Share Posted September 13, 2012 The X-5 has a gyro that you place close to the boats center of gravity/rotation. It's a definate step up from having the 'brain' unit down the back of the boat with the ram. Not having any electronics out in the weather helps reliability also. Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Posted September 14, 2012 Share Posted September 14, 2012 Got Raymarine on the boat at the moment st60 network, A60 plotter (all sent to Ipad via an Imux) and st6000 autopilot. The st60 network and plotter seem fine - some calibration issues with the wind instrument but otherwise all good. The st6000 not so good. As WT said the x5 is different to the st6000 in that the brians is located inside which seems far more sensible to me. I also looked at SIMRAD but they don't appear to have a tiller drive big enough (I wouldn't exactly call the 11.6 light on the helm!) Link to post Share on other sites
gonzo 0 Posted September 17, 2012 Share Posted September 17, 2012 I could be accused of being biased having sold Raymarine gear up until very recently but to put that into context i've garnered experience with a number of marine electronic manufacturers over 14 years or so. In my experience the raymarine pilots have an edge - especially with the tiller pilot variants. I know AC has had a long standing and bad experience with a r.m. pilot (was it a tiller or wheel drive AC?) but the comments on the gyro and its impact on performance are true - they make a huge difference to the pilot's ability to react to course changes quickly. The biggest problem with tiller pilots is they are often under spec'd and just can't handle the loads imparted on them. In my experience a short term failure of the drive means gross overloading, mid term failure less so but still under spec. Time and again i've done calcs on rudder loads and found the dissatisifed owner of a tiller pilot has under estimated the loads and/or put price at the top of their purchase decision. Some of that reflects on the person or company selling the gear not doing the job right which is an issue and possible cause for another thread! You can't just take the specs in the brochure as gospel either. An H28 for example is within the spec of one of the smaller 'ST' raymarine pilots but h28's have killed more of those than you could imagine!! WT fitting the SPX5 GP to his boat might be considered OTT but thats exactly the pilot i'd spec for an 8.4 as it'll cope with being pressed on a planing hull and not wear itself out doing so. That turned into a small novel - well done if you read this far... Talk to lusty's with your LOADED displacement and rudder dimensions to hand and work bacwards from there. Link to post Share on other sites
Fogg 427 Posted September 18, 2012 Share Posted September 18, 2012 I know AC has had a long standing and bad experience with a r.m. pilot (was it a tiller or wheel drive AC?) Wheelpilot. Can't recall if I'm currently on 5000 or 6000 model. My main gripes have been: 1. I've had 2 head units blow and I'm now on my 3rd. Cause never identified even after extensive investigation. 2. Even when it is working, it can't steer the boat properly in anything more than modest conditions especially off the wind. Think big meandering S curves and potential gybes when well off the wind, such that in 20+ kts off the wind, forget it, you're hand steering. Installing the rudder position sensor helped a bit but because my system doesn't have external gyro it will never perform any better, so I'm advised. If I was going offshore I'd need to rip it out and start again. For Gulf cruising, it's just about liveable. For now. So my advice would be go for a gyro model cos when you need the autopilot to work, you need it, regardless of whether your boat is big or small. And in my experience a gyro unit is essential for this, on the wheel models in any case. Link to post Share on other sites
Absolution 7 Posted September 18, 2012 Share Posted September 18, 2012 AC... Just out of interest; do you have a rudder angle sensor in your system? Link to post Share on other sites
Fogg 427 Posted September 18, 2012 Share Posted September 18, 2012 AC... Just out of interest; do you have a rudder angle sensor in your system? Yup. I added that a couple of seasons ago after the L&B guys reviewed my installation and recommended it as the next step. It improved performance in fresh conditions from abysmal to bad. From doing lots of subsequent background research I have concluded that these units are basically not fit for purpose i.e. they will not competently or safely steer a yacht in anything other than bening conditions. And AC's displacement & power & size are well within spec. Just about workable with gulf cruising where the worst case scenario for hand steering is, say, 6 hrs back home from Barrier but in real-world offshore cruising it is not a serious solution, it's a toy. There are many other equally disatisfied users out there who have come to the same realisation. I'm just trying to save someone from repeating my own experience i.e. realising too late. If anyone doubts my word feel free to come for a sail in AC in 15-20kts of breeze and see for yourself. I'm not bitter. Link to post Share on other sites
gonzo 0 Posted September 18, 2012 Share Posted September 18, 2012 AC - I agree your comments re the Raymarine wheel pilots are fair but in my opinion are not relevant to the other pilot options within the R.M. range such as the one 'bc' asked for feedback on. With wheel pilots the lack of a gyro is one issue and the level of dissatisfaction you allude to is no doubt a combination of no gyro and the fact the 12V motor used in the wheel pilot drives has about as much grunt as that used in a radio controlled car! Not really up to scratch for an autopilot system and the expectations that are laid on it. Even the newer wheel pilots with a gyro have (again in my opinion) under spec motors that just aren't up to it in the scheme of things. That being said the ST and SPX tiller drives, linear drives and hydraulic drive pilots are excellent pieces of kit. Spec'd right they have proven to be the best pilot I have sold over the years in terms of performance and longevity and competitively priced. I'm not in the game anymore so don't have a vested interest - just my thoughts on the options out there. Link to post Share on other sites
Fogg 427 Posted September 19, 2012 Share Posted September 19, 2012 I agree that there are many more happy tillerpilot users out there than wheelpilot users. Mainly cos the tillerpilot users are already sitting at anchor sipping a rum whereas their wheelpilot counterparts are still on the way - taking the scenic route. Link to post Share on other sites
Absolution 7 Posted September 19, 2012 Share Posted September 19, 2012 AC... do you have good access to the quadrant to mount a ram directly instead of connecting the pilot via the wheel? I suspect you will see a dramatic improvement in performance with a good ram without having to throw away the rest of the system. Doesn't have to be a Raymarine driver either: http://www.jefa.com/steering/products/d ... ct-dd1.htm http://www.ls-france.com/ls/uk/lsvoilem-pa-el-fr.php Link to post Share on other sites
gonzo 0 Posted September 19, 2012 Share Posted September 19, 2012 Mainly cos the tillerpilot users are already sitting at anchor sipping a rum whereas their wheelpilot counterparts are still on the way - taking the scenic route. Call of the day right there! Maybe Raymarine could use that as a selling feature - gulf tours under the watchful eye of your faithful wheel pilot... Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Posted September 20, 2012 Share Posted September 20, 2012 bc, On the Farr 11.6 Coppelia we have a NEXUS NX2 pilot, it has a ram with a rudder sensor, and a brain box and a compass safely out of the weather, we have a head unit in the cockpit only. The RAM is attached to the quadrant, and has never had any problems with controlling the boat, even under extras. However, we do have a very grunty (750 kg - 30AMP max) RAM, and from steering the mighty Coppelia a few miles in the last few years (RNI, RNZ etc) I would say that you need to make sure the RAM is up to it. Link to post Share on other sites
John B 106 Posted September 20, 2012 Share Posted September 20, 2012 I think Nexus are marketing the lecomble and schmitt drive and ram hooked up to their computer/ controller. Lustys did, they sold me mine and its just on the old st 6000 computer and head. No one has ever been able to explain to me why a tiller pilot rated for say a 5 ton boat, couldn't be shifted out on the tiller so as to increase, maybe double the lever arm.( or in other words, lessen the power demanded by the tiller/ rudder to operate it) and therefore be able to be used on a significantly bigger vessell. Presumably the better tiller pilots have a gain and speed setting range available... set it higher. The arc of travel of the tiller would be limited but as a backup and for steering a straight course at sea.. why not? Link to post Share on other sites
Fogg 427 Posted September 20, 2012 Share Posted September 20, 2012 I think Nexus are marketing the lecomble and schmitt drive and ram hooked up to their computer/ controller. Lustys did, they sold me mine and its just on the old st 6000 computer and head. No one has ever been able to explain to me why a tiller pilot rated for say a 5 ton boat, couldn't be shifted out on the tiller so as to increase, maybe double the lever arm.( or in other words, lessen the power demanded by the tiller/ rudder to operate it) and therefore be able to be used on a significantly bigger vessell. Presumably the better tiller pilots have a gain and speed setting range available... set it higher. The arc of travel of the tiller would be limited but as a backup and for steering a straight course at sea.. why not? Speed would kill it. The speed of response would slow so much it would bugger the feedback-driven performance etc. You could drive a ship with non-power assisted steering but the wheel would have to be geared so low that it would probably be 100 turns lock to lock. It would be virtually impossible to steer because of absence of immediate feedback to the results of the input. Link to post Share on other sites
John B 106 Posted September 20, 2012 Share Posted September 20, 2012 Thats what I meant by a good pilot having adjustment AC. My integral unit has gain and speed and is set well down the scale for most conditions. So what I'm wondering is why you can't just adjust up both or either of those functions to accomodate the shift in mounting position. Really I'm just thinking out loud and I'm curious as to why there is always such a blanket no it can't be done answer. Although it does occur to me that if we went offshore it'd be worth buying a tiller pilot to back up the installed unit( even if just for calm conditions). Thats another point too... my helm on a 45 ft boat isn't any heavier than the helm on a 35 footer, so why are they displacemnet rated? The funny thing is I had a look at both advance trident and lustys sites last night to get some basic facts and I'm buggered if I can find a tillerpilot even represented there now. Link to post Share on other sites
Chewing Gum 17 Posted September 21, 2012 Share Posted September 21, 2012 We have a Raymarine pilot from L&B. It has done lots of miles (I am not a fan of steering) on Lidgard 42. It is linear drive onto quadrant and is very accurate in just about any sea conditions. The separate computer box has a gyro built in and it is about 5 years old - not sure of model but I think it is one of the first with a built in gyro. The previous autopilot also Raymarine with brains in head unit was useless by comparison. Link to post Share on other sites
Kiteroa 8 Posted September 22, 2012 Share Posted September 22, 2012 Finished installing and fired up my SPX-5 for a test run today. It's a pretty lively unit! A lot faster than any of the tiller pilots i've used before. Can't wait to use it in anger. Link to post Share on other sites
Kestrahl 6 Posted September 27, 2012 Share Posted September 27, 2012 We have a X-5 Tiller on the Davo 35, done about 4000 NM with it now. The boat previously had a ST-4000 (used as a backup now) The X-5 with the course computer steers a lot more accurately, especially running in a big sea. I'm very happy with the performance and its been able to steer in anything. The Davo's on the upper weight limit for the X-5 (4800kg unloaded). I looked at the GP which seems like a lot more money to just have a bigger motor in the ram (same components). We had some problems with the X-5 ram after about 400 hours use, with bad clicking noises. I was reluctant to take it apart as its under warranty. Emailed Raymarine who advised me to unscrew it and check the lubrication. After doing that I found it had water inside that had contaminated the lubricant and corrosion on the outside of the bearing race. Its only had the odd rain shower and some spray so emailed Raymarine back with my displeasure and photos. Waited 2 weeks for a reply (which still hasn't come) and gave up and did a full strip down and rebuild, now its running smooth as silk again. (there is a nice little doc written by a cruiser who explains everything in detail with photos - getting the 44 little bearings back in can be tricky) Talking to other cruisers it appears water getting inside is a common problem, I've seen one guy tape the joins - sika where the wire goes into the motor, and put the top half of a coke bottle on the other end with some sort of seal - on a brand new GP ram. A quadrant and under deck ram would solve the problem. I think for any offshore cruising it pays to have a backup system. either two autopilots or a autopilot and a windvane. Link to post Share on other sites
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