rigger 47 Posted July 8, 2013 Author Share Posted July 8, 2013 50ft version of a foiling moth..... Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Posted July 8, 2013 Share Posted July 8, 2013 I think the event has snookered itself and has very few options for a new exciting boat design. Sorry, I struggle to remember a time when I disagreed with a statement as much as disagree with this one. First of all, the event has not snookered itself, and nor can it. Ever. The event is one of the few events which cannot snooker itself. It is actually prevented from doing so by the deed of gift... The modern history of the America's Cup is characterised by periods with different "agreed classes". These are and have only been perpetuated by collective agreement. Each time someone wins the Cup, they have a Challenger of Record lined up with a pre-written notice of challenge and as the boat crosses the line to win the cup the agreed challenger of record presents the next challenge. The big boat challenge in San Diego was only possible because SDYC did not do this... so since there was not challenge already accepted the Kiwis issued one. Under the deed of gift, as long as the first challenge received complies with the basic preconditions outlined in the deed the holder of the cup MUST accept it... So, what does that mean? The America's Cup is, always has been and always will be a design competition. The purpose of the deed of gift was to challenge nations to out design each other. Over time design standards of excellence change and advance. Therefore a given agreed class only lasts as long as it is defensible as an agreed container for the Cup's contest. First there were the J boats, then in the interests of cost control 12 metres were introduced, and were retained for a long time... However, as time passed, it eventually became clear that the design world had moved on, and the IACC class was introduced. After Valencia's IACC regatta, controversy descended, and the agreed challenger of record was disqualified, which lead to two very exciting deed of gift boats contesting the cup which Oracle won. They then had a challenger of record lined up with the AC72 class concept at the centre of their thinking. As sure as eggs are eggs the design status quo will be surpassed with time. Advances will continue, and the America's Cup will always be one of the fulcrums of sailing engineering research and development. There is simply no way that the AC72 class ( a ) will last forever, and/or ( b ) will not itself change with time. The IACC rule underwent several revisions, and I bet money that if the next challenge uses the AC72 class that there will be modifications to the rule. The class rule even allows for this process. There are currently and of course will also be in the future unimagined exciting boat design evolutions. To contend that we have reached the end of development, and/or that because the current boats/rule are "exciting and new" that they will never change or be replaced is ridiculous. Link to post Share on other sites
Mothership 6 Posted July 8, 2013 Share Posted July 8, 2013 Top post that man Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Posted July 8, 2013 Share Posted July 8, 2013 Great post kiwi Bardy and very thought provoking, but you have not offered a class, concept, or design that would replace the AC 72 and meet the criteria I suggested. What will they come up with next? Or will they go back to the past. For me, and I suspect others, I want something more traditional that reflects good close match racing competition but I think that would now be slow and boring. Sure many will get behind whatever is raced , and in the respect you are 100% correct, but will that be "advanced technology? ' and keep both sailors and the money men/sponsors excited enough to compete? It will be interesting to see. Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Posted July 9, 2013 Share Posted July 9, 2013 Yacht racing has f*ck all to do with speed, in fact often the faster the boats the less of a race it can be. The only speed that is important in any yacht race is the differential between you and your competitor. If that's 20 knots cool and good for you but you will have no race. If that is 0.1kt then you'll have a magnificent race. This quest for more speed is why the harbour is full of 20-30 year old boats knot 2 year old ones. Anyway - Mod 70's is my call at this stage. Or maybe a fully tweaked 55-60ft mono. Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Posted July 9, 2013 Share Posted July 9, 2013 I agree with K-Bs basic premise - that it's always been a design/technology competition. But, while the early racing took the form of drag racing, from about 1893 (when windward/leeward courses were introduced - Valkyrie vs Vigilant) the design development was strictly within the context of a developing art of yacht racing - rules, tactics, etc. I fear that what we have done is return to drag racing and that might be spectacular for the punters, and might require a great deal of athleticism, it ain't yacht racing. Link to post Share on other sites
tuffyluffy 76 Posted July 9, 2013 Share Posted July 9, 2013 60ft version of these with 20 blokes of wires would be my pick Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Posted July 9, 2013 Share Posted July 9, 2013 Great post kiwi Bardy and very thought provoking, Thanks. but you have not offered a class, concept, or design that would replace the AC 72 and meet the criteria I suggested. I agree I haven't done that. I didn't intend to. And I still don't intend to. The statement was that the event had snookered itself, with very few options for a new exciting boat. I just rejected the contention that it had snookered itself, or that it could even snooker itself... ...I also happen to agree with DL that you don't need an exciting boat to have exciting racing... in fact the two are almost (but not quite) mutually exclusive. And I contend that exciting boats are and will continue to develop, with or without the America's Cup spurring the design envelope to be pushed. Although having it do so certainly seems to help things along too. What will they come up with next? Or will they go back to the past. For me, and I suspect others, I want something more traditional that reflects good close match racing competition but I think that would now be slow and boring. It is interesting. A lot of people think the Americas Cup is all about and should be all about match racing. It's not. It's a design competition. I happen to agree that good match racing is a good spectacle. No argument from me there. But _if_ you fuse the two concepts of Match racing and The America's Cup together and assume the latter can't exist without the former, then I think you're wrong. (Note, I am NOT saying you are doing this Topsail, I am just saying that if anyone does do this, I think they are wrong). You can either have (a) a pure no holds barred design race, which will be expensive and sometimes/often (depending on your point of view) produce one sided contests as one side comprehensively out designs the other... (Note this is what the America's Cup was intended to be all about... it is what the deed of gift provides for) or ( a class rule that limits the design window, forcing teams to be relatively close together in performance in the interests of creating a better spectacle. Chosing a type of boat that is good for match racing is one of a number of considerations in the definition of the type of event and the type of spectacle you go for. This iteration of the AC rule is (relative to the 12 metres and the IACC) more of (a) and less of (, but still MUCH less of (a) than either the J boats or the free design period before that or any of the DoG design contests. This iteration goes for speed and wow factor for the spectacle instead of close tactical exchanges. Both are valid spectacles, they are just different. It will be interesting to see. Indeed. Link to post Share on other sites
Chewing Gum 17 Posted July 9, 2013 Share Posted July 9, 2013 This sums it up: Australian John Bertrand is in San Francisco to celebrate the 30th anniversary of the first Louis Vuitton Cup. In 1983 Bertrand skippered Australia II to victory over the challengers in the inaugural Louis Vuitton Cup, before going on to become the first challenger to win the America’s Cup in its 132-year history. Bertrand remains a keen observer of the America’s Cup and has been sailing on the AC45 catamarans used in the AC World Series. Speaking informally with the media on Saturday, he said the America’s Cup remains the pinnacle sporting event in the world. “From my perspective, the America’s Cup is still the most prestigious sporting event in the world,” he said. “It’s quirky, it’s different but it has been around longer than any other sporting event in modern history. And as a result it attracts the multi-billionaires of this era.” He says the appeal of being able to stamp your vision on an event with such a rich history and tradition is irresistible. “Part of the nuance of the America’s Cup is that if you win, you control the jewels. There’s no other event where once you win you can change the game to a fair degree. So that’s a big part of the intrigue. If you win the America’s Cup you are launched globally. And it’s been the same type of people involved in the 1920s, through the 1970s right through to today.” Bertrand says that’s not the only thing that hasn’t changed over time. He says the recent controversy over rudder changes implemented as part of the Regatta Director Safety Rules reminds him of the fuss the wing-keel on Australia II generated in 1983. “Listening to the press conference yesterday, I was thinking we had keel-gate back then and we have rudder-gate now. So nothing has changed. The America’s Cup is a high stakes game. There is politics involved. It’s in the DNA of this event called the America’s Cup. I kind of like the drama of what happened yesterday. This is the America’s Cup. “We’re talking about people who have dedicated their lives for three or four years to this, seven days a week, 24 hours a day. The stakes are high. If a team thinks there is even the smallest opportunity for gain by another team, they will try to shut that opportunity down. That’s what the America’s Cup is all about.” Link to post Share on other sites
Hurts 6 Posted July 9, 2013 Share Posted July 9, 2013 I would have thought the multi 50 rule would be good - what I've heard about it at least - can anyone find an English version of the rule? Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Posted July 9, 2013 Share Posted July 9, 2013 60ft version of these with 20 blokes of wires would be my pick + 100 Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Posted July 9, 2013 Share Posted July 9, 2013 Yes+100 too. Are they the Lake Garda boats? kiwi Bardy. brilliant second post and totally agree. The people on this thread should be running the next event. Link to post Share on other sites
Bad Kitty 252 Posted July 9, 2013 Share Posted July 9, 2013 Yes+100 too. Are they the Lake Garda boats? kiwi Bardy. brilliant second post and totally agree. The people on this thread should be running the next event. You can, that's the great thing about it. Win it & you get to write the rule next time. Excellent précis Kiwi Bardy. Me, I'd go with KB's design contest, nice open box rule but with a pretty tough Nationality rule in there. Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Posted July 9, 2013 Share Posted July 9, 2013 When the cup comes down under I hope Dalt's does one thing... Allows a defender series with more that one defender and does not just let ETNZ defend alone. Link to post Share on other sites
Clipper 343 Posted July 9, 2013 Share Posted July 9, 2013 When the cup comes down under I hope Dalt's does one thing... Allows a defender series with more that one defender and does not just let ETNZ defend alone. Cool, nz has heaps of money to run TWO campaigns, maybe 3 Link to post Share on other sites
Bad Kitty 252 Posted July 9, 2013 Share Posted July 9, 2013 Nah think big, we could have a full on defender series with like 12 boats. That's only 12 hundreds millions or something. We just need to get past this small minded thinking that's holding us back from being the super power that's our true destiny. Topsail's onto it. Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Posted July 9, 2013 Share Posted July 9, 2013 NZ could easily have two-three defenders. How?... 1. Lowering the cost of the event with a design / rules that limts $ spend. 2.As per ETNZ, any kiwi could start a campaign using overseas money/funding/sponsorship. 3. There are a few billionaires here keen to spend. Owen Glen could be a candidate. I would suspect Qatar would be keen to front a campaign just as Emirates has for ETNZ. The only thing holding a multiple team defence back is Dalts. I would love to see a defence with the nationality clause ensuring NZ's best talent on display. That would be awesome. Link to post Share on other sites
idlerboat 116 Posted July 9, 2013 Share Posted July 9, 2013 It IS the AC.... Yet again it has proven what its history has dictated. Dont slow it down. Push the envelope. Formular X racing.... Big money, big egos, cutting edge tech.....and speed. One second time differances at 12 knots is not where this is going to go. The rules are set at the start of the challenge.... Formular one cars dont change a whole season because one team cant either get up to speed or cope with the regs. This is new an exciting territory...dont slow the boats, but rather work out how to make the crew safe. If a moto GP rider can do 150 knots, come off and mostly be safe.....? It is circuit racing...a controlled race track, and always has been... Dont for a second think or compare it with open ocean , long distance stuff.... Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Posted July 9, 2013 Share Posted July 9, 2013 LR are at 50% in or out "The Italian fashion magnate stated that the chances of pulling the plug completely were at 50%. He isn’t interested in taking part in this America’s Cup and in fact he has been seriously contemplating the team’s withdrawal since a month. He claimed that New Zealanders had also thought about withdrawing but their multi-million sponsorship deals made that option simply impossible." http://www.vsail.info/2013/07/08/americ ... ithdrawal/ Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Posted July 9, 2013 Share Posted July 9, 2013 LR have never beaten EMTNZ in important races...in fact they have been smashed ever single time. LR no that they are slow and are going to get another hiding at the hands of the kiwis so there looking for a way out in order that they don't get smashed. Ruddergate is the perfect opportunity for them to throw their toys out of the cot and try and hold of as long as possible so they can try and find new ways to get around EMTNZ for the finals. Im betting that they wont face EMTNZ in the round robbin when they decide that they want to stay and will just race around the track against artimas. warning...warning....the ginger is trolling......who wants to bite? Link to post Share on other sites
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