Fish 0 Posted October 23, 2018 Share Posted October 23, 2018 Anyone know a good supplier for getting 'trash pumps' / emergency bilge pumps? I'm not talking the common or garden variety electric bilge pump with eeny weny peeing like a little boy flow rates. I'm after a high capacity 12 v pump for using when you are sinking, i.e. really in the sh*t and need to move a fair bit of water to stay afloat. I'm thinking connecting direct to the battery terminals with jumper leads / crocodile clips, a length of lay flat hose and a rope on the pump, all stored out of the way until required (i.e. not permanently installed with wiring and fixed plumbing). Contractors call them trash pumps cause you can drop it into a muddy trench and pump out water, stones, gravel, sand and other sh*t at good flowrates. I understand these are often carried offshore, and one (or two) were put to good effect on the S34 in the RNZ way way off the west coast of the NI and got a little tickle up from an ex TC or other similar piece of bad weather. Without their trash pumps they wouldn't have told the story. We can't fit a conventional electric bilge pump under our floor boards, and assessing the risks and scenarios of what I may need and how I may need it, if I ever happened to need an electric pump, I would want it to be the biggest damn pump I could get. Kind of like insurance, you don't like paying for it, don't plan to ever need it, but every now and then you are damn happy you've got it. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Island Time 1,230 Posted October 23, 2018 Share Posted October 23, 2018 Commercial boats usually have them. Power take off, or with their own engines (petrol or diesel). A decent one (1000 ltrs/min) would make your batts flat pretty fast Id have thought. Id be interested in whatever you come up with.. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Fish 0 Posted October 23, 2018 Author Share Posted October 23, 2018 Yes, I will be restricted by current draw. I need to look at what my house batteries can discharge at max, and spec a pump based on current draw that is less than that. I've seen PTO's and engine mounted pumps etc, but we are restricted by space at the engine, and one of those is probably a bit over the top for a recreational yacht. I'm looking for a step up from a hand operated pump, and a higher flowrate than a conventional bilge pump (i.e. one for pumping out the odd dribble or inside shower compartments that drain to the bilge). My logic is that is that if my batteries can sustain a high flow pump for 30 min to 1 hr, that would give enough time for 1 of 3 things: 1) find the leak and block it (finding the leak often needs the water level to be low so you can see it), 2) motor to a safe place, i.e. beach or a travel lift, or 3) provide enough time for a rescue from other boats or CG Of course if the water gets into the battery compartment then everything is stuffed. That is at swab height in the saloon, which would be a fair bit of water sloshing around already. I'm thinking I'll need to look at contractors suppliers / commercial pump types, rather than a marine outfit. Just hoping if someone has been through the exercise already it can save me some leg work. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Battleship 100 Posted October 23, 2018 Share Posted October 23, 2018 We went through a few different pumps trying to get a good system for water ballast. The main problem we found was the high volume electric jobbies wouldn't self prime and the current draw was such that we needed the engine running anyway. Ended up getting a very large impeller pump connected via a belt to the engine with an electrically activated clutch similar to the ones on a freezer pump. Never needs priming and does about 300 litres a minute. We also have a fitting so it can be used as an emergency pump. We have used this setup a lot in the last 18 months and it has proven trouble free. The pump is similar to the ones used in very big boat engines so they can do big hours. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
marinheiro 352 Posted October 23, 2018 Share Posted October 23, 2018 I have one of these https://www.amazon.com/Rule-Evacuator-8000-High-Capacity-Submersible/dp/B0084A9K40 it is two 4000 pumps put together. Outlet is 3". I have a layflat hose for this, not ideal, this is better https://www.amazon.com/Camco-39631-Heavy-Duty-Sewer-Hose/dp/B000BP7M8W/ref=sr_1_3?ie=UTF8&qid=1540290110&sr=8-3&keywords=3%22+sewer+hose Quote Link to post Share on other sites
philstar 61 Posted October 23, 2018 Share Posted October 23, 2018 I heard a frightened yachtie with a bucket is a pretty good bilge pump. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
SloopJohnB 323 Posted October 23, 2018 Share Posted October 23, 2018 I heard a frightened yachtie with a bucket is a pretty good bilge pump. Not if you sail AC boat. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Battleship 100 Posted October 23, 2018 Share Posted October 23, 2018 Just sussed and I have Johnson 2200GPH and a 4000GPH. In theory they should shift 6.5lts per second with the heads they have. Got them from Lighthouse Marine in Albany. From memory around 5 hundy for the pair. Have you tried them in reality? I have found bilge pump manufacturers claims to be somewhat dubious. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Fish 0 Posted October 23, 2018 Author Share Posted October 23, 2018 I heard a frightened yachtie with a bucket is a pretty good bilge pump. I heard the risk of heart attack is proportional to the height of water over the floor boards, and the age of the frightened yachtie with a bucket. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Fish 0 Posted October 23, 2018 Author Share Posted October 23, 2018 Have you tried them in reality? I have found bilge pump manufacturers claims to be somewhat dubious. I think just like car fuel consumption figures, it pays to take them with a grain of salt AND read the fine print. Those Johnson pumps, the flowrates are given with a 'free discharge', i.e. no length of discharge hose, no lift (static head) and no fittings on the outlet (bends, elbows etc). Somewhat significant, they specifically exclude a non return valve, so if you are doing a permanent install and include a non-return valve, the performance will be reduced. It is possible to get the actual pump curves, and determine the head losses and static head etc, but I'm thinking the average yachtie would get lost about then. the old 'bigger is better' probably applies, and then halve the advertised (free discharge) flowrate to get a realistic figure once installed. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Fish 0 Posted October 23, 2018 Author Share Posted October 23, 2018 I have one of these https://www.amazon.com/Rule-Evacuator-8000-High-Capacity-Submersible/dp/B0084A9K40 it is two 4000 pumps put together. Outlet is 3". I have a layflat hose for this, not ideal, this is better https://www.amazon.com/Camco-39631-Heavy-Duty-Sewer-Hose/dp/B000BP7M8W/ref=sr_1_3?ie=UTF8&qid=1540290110&sr=8-3&keywords=3%22+sewer+hose This pump fairly much looks like what I'm after, I'm just sussing the specs. Any idea where I can get some 3" layflat from locally? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Fish 0 Posted October 24, 2018 Author Share Posted October 24, 2018 I sussed those big Rules but went Johnson. I'd read the Rule fine print carefully before you purchase...... and add a battery. They are OK for heavy motor sailors with inbuilt power stations not for sail boats running off solar panels Its funny you mention that - I've just been reading my house battery spec's. And don't be rude KM, you know I'm talking motorsailor with an actual engine and alternator, not an off grid single handed trans-ocean garden sculptor. The big Rule says 30 amps (gives about 6 l/s at a realistic head). What happens if I try taking that out of deep cycle FLA batteries? We've got 2 x 6v 220 ah (new, Hella Endurant R232). In the spec's, under CCA it says NA (obviously its not a start battery...) I guess I need the 1 hr capacity (not the 20 hr capacity), I just need to find that? Under the scenario I'm looking at (boat sinking) I don't care if I stuff the batteries, or run them below 50 DoD etc, but I'd like to be able to run this pump without having to need to start the engine. If I can, I will start the engine, but I would want to get 30 min minimum run time out of the batteries with no alternator input. So, can I get 30 amps out of a 220 amp hr deep cycle battery? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
marinheiro 352 Posted October 24, 2018 Share Posted October 24, 2018 All the pump manufacturers play the same game - name plate ratings are based on zero head and 13.6V battery voltage I bought the layflat hose off Trademe, there are some regular listings there. You can see the current discharge curve for a 220ahr battery here (last page) https://www.trojanbattery.com/pdf/datasheets/T105_Trojan_Data_Sheets.pdf 30 amps looks to be around 6 hrs (~350 min). If you were in a situation where pumping is needed, best to start the engine immediately to push the battery voltage up Quote Link to post Share on other sites
harrytom 642 Posted October 24, 2018 Share Posted October 24, 2018 never mind an electric pump when the water is over the floor boards. I would be wanting a bucket or a manual whale gusher pump,bilge pumps are fine from experience when located in one place but when you need a pump in hurry all sorts of debris float along and get sucked in,next minute pump stopped. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Fish 0 Posted October 24, 2018 Author Share Posted October 24, 2018 The R232 batteries are rated for something like 122 min @75 Amps, and 430 odd minutes at 25 Amps, so it doesn't look like 30 amps draw will be much of a problem. The spec sheet below shows the head flow curve for the Rule 'Evacuator 8000'. Strangely it is a dead straight line which makes me a little suspicious. It should be a curved curve... http://www.xylemflowcontrol.com/files/EV8000_SalesSheet.pdf The Rule is a Xylem pump. Xylem are probably the worlds leading pump supplier, certainly in municipal wastewater pumps. Those pumps have solids handling second to none. (not sure who makes Johnson) But looking at Harrytoms's point, primarily I'm after a trash pump, which by definition can pump trash, i.e. wont clog or block. Agree the common or garden variety electric bilge pumps aren't the spec I'm after, otherwise I'd have one already. The 'Evacuator 8000' gives a lot of pump capacity for the $$$, but I'm thinking I can get better solids handling and capacity. The 3" discharge is good for lack of clogging, but the inlet screens will block rather easily I believe. Having sussed the battery capacity, I could possibly go as high as 70 amps draw and get a reasonable run time. Much more than that and my alternator wont keep up in the case I'm running the engine. But 70 amps opens up much more powerful pumps, and potential for better solids handling. Thinking i need to suss some non-marine but still submersible options. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
marinheiro 352 Posted October 24, 2018 Share Posted October 24, 2018 The Rule 8000 is set up so you can run either or both pumps, you can see a butterfly flap in the outlet to prevent backflow. The evaluator is identical except it is wired so both pumps are always running. I don't think there is a 12V yacht size trash pump around. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Fish 0 Posted October 24, 2018 Author Share Posted October 24, 2018 I don't think there is a 12V yacht size trash pump around. I'm thinking even if a trash pump were available in 12v, its additional weight and physical size for stowage might be an issue, not to mention $$$ Agree on the appearance it could block easily, the base looks no different than a std bilge pump. I've added crap stopping around both of mine....and by crap that included pissed yachties, fiddling kids and the like. It's not that hard to do so that is a possible option for the 8000. So I've already been thinking about making a big strum box to fit the pump in. Mesh screen made into a cube, with the pump inside (fish and chip deep fryer basket sort of thing). Should screen out a majority of floaties and still let good flow to the pump. Size for stowage may be problematic. I may make it the same dimensions as a locker so it can live in their and be used as a basket in non-emergency life. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Battleship 100 Posted October 24, 2018 Share Posted October 24, 2018 You could just buy one of these and put it in a locker. https://www.mitre10.co.nz/shop/al-ko-petrol-pump-bmp-14000-97cc-4-stroke-red-silver/p/269383?gclid=Cj0KCQjwsMDeBRDMARIsAKrOP7GZ6rF-0BZPlCZnW0wpcXevoJHOmwwN9l_qZ5BA3JvoBcSn9f60RNoaAtLDEALw_wcB&gclsrc=aw.ds 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
DaveNoy 1 Posted October 25, 2018 Share Posted October 25, 2018 This pump fairly much looks like what I'm after, I'm just sussing the specs. Any idea where I can get some 3" layflat from locally? Youngman Richardson (sell all sorts of civil/construction small machinery) will sell it, but wouldn’t think it’s cheap. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
cj! 19 Posted October 28, 2018 Share Posted October 28, 2018 Not 12V but wondering if anyone has seen these engine-driven fast flow emergency bilge pumps? https://www.fastflowpump.com/Bilge.html Quote Link to post Share on other sites
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