DrWatson 375 Posted October 14, 2019 Share Posted October 14, 2019 I know it depends on a lot of factors, but what sort of mileage/lifespan are folk getting from their sails before they're stretched out and not of good shape? Let's say cruising with cruising laminates, Main and Jib life? Of course if you spend your cruising beating into 30 knts it'ss be less than lifting nicely downwind in 12 knts, but nonetheless, some estimates would be a good start. At the moment I expect that If I sailed back to NZ, the nice sails I have would be due for replacement by the time I got to BOI. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Island Time 1,235 Posted October 14, 2019 Share Posted October 14, 2019 My Norths laminate roller furler headsail has done about 25000 miles. Its pretty tired. My last main (dacron) did over 30,000 and was horrible at the end, and the cloth so rotten you could push your fingers through it. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
DrWatson 375 Posted October 14, 2019 Author Share Posted October 14, 2019 If you have a really nice set you want to preserve, then I'd consider getting an old race set for cheap to come to nz with. It's definitely a "how long is a piece of string" kinda question fer sure. Yeah that's actually a consideration I have - getting a Dacron main and jib for delivery. Even things like having a crew take the boat to Greece in spring and I go down and spend a few weeks there, but it's 2500NM to Athens so it's not something I can do in my own vacation time... So there's a certain amount of wear n tear to consider there, as well as covering the delivery crew - (anyone wanna do that run for me? lol) But I'm also trying to work out a "per mile" or "per year" costing. Guests have been saying "can we contribute to the cost of running the boat?" I've been shrugging my shoulders n' saying "If you'd like to make a small donation, sure" But I've no real idea on a per mile/ per cruise kinda basis. So as an exercise for interest's sake I'm having a look. (maybe I shouldn't... esp. if I include depreciations, lol!) Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Fish 0 Posted October 14, 2019 Share Posted October 14, 2019 Charter race boats usually have a per mile cost for sail depreciation. In that context it is fairly high, but usually involves top end sails on top end boats ( I'm not talking sunsail charters here). I've no idea what the costs are or where to look to find out. It is moderately common in the UK, you could possibly look into that for a ball park cost and adjust it for your spec gear. On basic economics though, Dacron has always been the best cost per mile. That is why the majority of cruisers and race boats have delivery sets in dacron. The tricky thing to quantify with dacron is the 'shape life' though. Clearly radial cut sails have better shape life, and as you go up from cruising laminates to 3D Carbon what evers, the shape life should improve. Although my expectations of the dollars per mile would go out the window. If you've got a posh set of sails you want to use for competitive racing, and also plan on long deliveries / cruising, I would have thought a 'delivery set' of sails would be worth it. One other comment that if often made, short handed / solo racers can expect to flog their sails more, so it's recommended to just get cheapies and accept the need to replace them regularly, in comparison to fully crewed boats who can do a peel or a reef in the fraction of the time. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
DrWatson 375 Posted October 14, 2019 Author Share Posted October 14, 2019 Id just take the costs on the chin and suggest to guests a nominal fee, youre on a losing wicket called boat ownership That's what I've always done and it's a pleasure Fish, that's an important point about fully (experienced) crew or not. With only one or two on board, reefing or any manouvure takes longer and is more likely to result in more flogging until you've got it down pat (Ie have your method all sorted). With more/experienced crew, it is definitely easier and smoother for all those. Just noticed it on the last cruise, just one other experienced had made things (mostly) much better. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
DrWatson 375 Posted October 14, 2019 Author Share Posted October 14, 2019 For Greece it would be interesting to do a cost comparison between the wear and rear, berthage and running costs in sailing there, or getting it hauled to Italy and going from there. True, running down the Adriatic from Triest or so might be much better than burning money on crew or vacation on sailing it there. Current costs are about €8500 per year for fixed + sails and breakages (ignoring depreciation)... Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Jon 360 Posted October 14, 2019 Share Posted October 14, 2019 When we sailed back from Europe we had lots of friends and family aboard (30 in total) We decided to do the trip so we paid for all the boat related costs, fuel, berthage, repairs etc Food, drink and entry costs were shared evenly amongst the crew. That was how we did it however we saw all sorts from paid crew to paying crew. Really important to state this very clearly before anyone joins the boat !! As for sails, a good set of cruising laminate sails will easily do the trip and still be fine for cruising here, however I’d be careful about carrying extras, a mate bought a yacht in the US that came with a pile of race sails that he stowed in the forward cabin, when he got here they were all stuffed as were the fibres where bent in the flake with other sails on top the had broken from the constant movement (cyclic lifespan) All I’d be looking at for your boat is a main with really good reefing system, ideally able to be reefed downwind and Genoa made both from Cruise lam, Dacron heavy weather jib and maybe an A3. It’s not a race and a long legs (3000nm) the difference between being comfortable and pushing hard is actually only a day. And Murphy will always make that day a Sunday or public holiday every time Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Kestrahl 6 Posted October 15, 2019 Share Posted October 15, 2019 Its an impossible question to answer as it depends on the conditions the sail ends up being used in. I did UV testing on different dacrons which had some interesting results, just from UV alone some dacrons these days would only do around 20,000 miles ( 65% daylight sailing, 35% night sailing ) in the tropics before they tear like tissue, and this is only from UV and not fluttering or actually using the sail sailing, so real life would be less. I suspect some companies are using yarns from China without any UV inhibitors. A good dacron sail should do at least 50,000, and Hydra-Net a lot more. DP had a Hydra-Net sail they were showing off at boatshows which had done over 200,000. Of course none of the woven sails hold the shape that great, but most cruisers are okay with that as they spend the majority of the time reaching and running. Our spectra cruising laminate mainsail only did around 10,000-15,000 before the you could tear the taffeta with your fingernails, but it still had a good shape for racing and no de lamination. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
wal 27 Posted October 15, 2019 Share Posted October 15, 2019 When I make them they last forever. Really truly! Buy Honest Wal's Flappy Bits!! Quote Link to post Share on other sites
1paulg 17 Posted October 15, 2019 Share Posted October 15, 2019 Pleased with my Hydranet - still plenty of life after 28000nm -had the stitching re done as the cloth had outlived the stitching but was well worth it. Know of 2 friends who had hi tech cruising laminates that just lasted 4 years (full time cruising)- both have gone to Hydranet . Would definitely be top of my list for replacement if I were needing to do so. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Jon 360 Posted October 15, 2019 Share Posted October 15, 2019 My main is Hydranet Genoa is cruiselam Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Dtwo 157 Posted October 16, 2019 Share Posted October 16, 2019 When I make them they last forever. Really truly! Buy Honest Wal's Flappy Bits!! They better.... Quote Link to post Share on other sites
wal 27 Posted October 16, 2019 Share Posted October 16, 2019 Oh but not when it's you though I've seen you sail....... Quote Link to post Share on other sites
mcp 32 Posted October 16, 2019 Share Posted October 16, 2019 Do any of the main sail makers use Hydranet as standard? and what is the premium? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Dtwo 157 Posted October 17, 2019 Share Posted October 17, 2019 Do any of the main sail makers use Hydranet as standard? and what is the premium? The cloth is expensive but worth it if you are planning some miles. Talk to Dave Parr (Waldo) at Calibre Sails, he's done quite a few. 021 782 764 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Jon 360 Posted October 17, 2019 Share Posted October 17, 2019 Do any of the main sail makers use Hydranet as standard? and what is the premium? Evolution did mine Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Black Panther 1,587 Posted October 17, 2019 Share Posted October 17, 2019 LR. Love it. On a headssail some 1000s more. Do shop around. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Kestrahl 6 Posted December 25, 2019 Share Posted December 25, 2019 Do any of the main sail makers use Hydranet as standard? and what is the premium? It is expensive... Maybe a little overpriced. Incidence and Elvstrom are the two biggest users and I think get the best deals on it. NZ sailmakers pay more due to the shipping, going though the local dealer etc. Most of the seconds grade hydra-net finds its way to NZ and Aus which makes it more affordable, but more likely your sail is going to lose its shape due to issues in the weaving/finishing. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
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