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Halyard for 11.6meter cruiser.


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Having to replace a Main Halyard 12mm that has  some sort of Hi spec core its done 20 years and come to the end of its life. But there seems quite a few choices and prices. Are there any riggers out there can give me direction I dont want super high spec but I also enjoy sailing and dont want to be revisiting the mast to retension the halyard etc.

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1 hour ago, vesper1 said:

Having to replace a Main Halyard 12mm that has  some sort of Hi spec core its done 20 years and come to the end of its life. But there seems quite a few choices and prices. Are there any riggers out there can give me direction I dont want super high spec but I also enjoy sailing and dont want to be revisiting the mast to retension the halyard etc.

You can go much smaller than 12mm but you are going to be limited by the size and working load of your clutch.

At the highend you can do end-to-end splicing of sk99. I did a 4 to 5 to 6 to 8 to 10 so we had 10 at the clutch and 4mm up most of the mast. The 4mm is 3000kg breaking load - which is rediculous unless you regularly hoist medium sized sedans up your rig.

NB: I recommend getting this professionally done if it is even remotely possible that you'd hoist a person up the mast on it. 

SK99 is going to give you the best performance but at the highest price point. 

Vectran is a great choice for a cruiser/racer at a slightly lower price point than SK99. 

This is imho an excellent halyard:

https://chainsropesandanchors.co.nz/Rope-Cordage/Yacht-halyard/10mm-Vectran-Cored-Racing-Braid

 

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Spectra or UHMwPE (which Spectra and Dyneema are brand names of the flasher end of that material spectrum) cored

Donaghys Superspeed

Armare Speedcruise

Maybe a pre-stretched Polyester double braid like a Armare Star. That's popular amongst the cruisers.

 

 

 

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Do you have to splice Spectra. Need to replace the wire to Kiwifurl drum which pulls back the spring loaded locking pin. Can I just tie the ends off without splicing.

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1 hour ago, CarpeDiem said:

You can go much smaller than 12mm but you are going to be limited by the size and working load of your clutch.

At the highend you can do end-to-end splicing of sk99. I did a 4 to 5 to 6 to 8 to 10 so we had 10 at the clutch and 4mm up most of the mast. The 4mm is 3000kg breaking load - which is rediculous unless you regularly hoist medium sized sedans up your rig.

NB: I recommend getting this professionally done if it is even remotely possible that you'd hoist a person up the mast on it. 

SK99 is going to give you the best performance but at the highest price point. 

Vectran is a great choice for a cruiser/racer at a slightly lower price point than SK99. 

This is imho an excellent halyard:

https://chainsropesandanchors.co.nz/Rope-Cordage/Yacht-halyard/10mm-Vectran-Cored-Racing-Braid

 

Hi  KM....would you hoist a  crew (or yourself )up a spliced main halyard as described here.... ;4 to 6 to 8 ?

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52 minutes ago, chariot said:

Do you have to splice Spectra. Need to replace the wire to Kiwifurl drum which pulls back the spring loaded locking pin. Can I just tie the ends off without splicing.

Talking UHMwPE in general, splicing is preferred as this fibre and knots are knot mates. Tie a bowline in this material and BOOM your strength drops about 50-60% instantly. So given the option splice. But in saying that many use the product not for strength but for their very low to no stretch so if that's what it's about knots make no difference to that. So Mr C you'll need to suss how much strength you need verse the size of line. If the required strength is pushing the lines break load then splice, if there is a big gap then tieing a knot is fine.

Notes:

UHMwPE = Ultra High Molecular Weight Polyethylene

Spectra and Dyneema are brand names of a UHMwPE fibre made by Honeywell (some by Toyobo in Japan) and Royal DSM respectively. They are big in NZ as we are a tiny country so one or 2 players can dominate which closes the door to other options like Tokilon which is made by a mob called Mitsi thingy whotsit. These are all manufacturing very good constantly improving fibres.

Under those brand names we get rope manufacturer ones like the most well known Dynex, now called Dynice as they lost a court case over who owned the name. Then there is Armare with Superround, Speedplus and a few other variations, Marlow with D12 and a few others, Fineline with Advantage, Samson with a shed load. These are ropes made using assorted UHMwPE's, many being dyneema or spectra but some using what we call 'Chineema', chinese made UHMwPE's.

Some Chineemas are fine, some a bit iffy, some utter and complete sh*t likely to kill you. In the 4x4 game many are having dyneema bust as low loads...errr, hello, you've been sold Chineema dude. Generally in the rope game reputable manufacturers will use reputable Chineemas. But we have rope manufacturers selling Chineema as Dyneema, to us that is a sign of if they are going to 'fudge' the materials what else are they willing to fudge.

These UHMwPE ropes are Class 2 ropes. Std polyester double braids are Class 1 ropes.

You can splice bog std Polyester using a Class 2 splice perfectly fine, fiddler than a Class 1 but will work.

DO NOT splice a Class 2 rope using a Class 1 splice, all that does it totally negate any and all goodness the fancy core has. It also means you've just waste a shed load of coin.

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1 hour ago, armchairadmiral said:

Hi  KM....would you hoist a  crew (or yourself )up a spliced main halyard as described here.... ;4 to 6 to 8 ?

A crew, not a problem. Me, hell No :)

Na, if done well using the right gear the only problem will be the voice in your head screaming 'TOO SMALL get me off this now!!!'

We commonly make halyards and other things by laminating like Carpe has and often for the same reason. small is light and plenty strong but a right bitch to hang on to with cold hands or existing jammers so we layer other covers on top to bulk it out where needed. Sometimes do that to increase chafe protection, sometimes just for aesthetics. Some of our most Gucci sh*t is going into office and shop fit outs, not boats, which we find a bit weird. But we love that as yachties squeak when they walk the tight buggers where the mobs specifying the fit outs aren't spending their own money. Govt and Councils are even better again ;)

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The only thing I would add, is that for a cruiser, it is more about handling rather than strength. As said, a small diameter will sufice as far as strength goes. But hell on your hands if you normally haul the sail up by hand initially, then winch on the tension. I would not go less than 12mm for comfort. 14mm, provided your sheeves, clutch and winch tailer can handle it of course.

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19 hours ago, KM... said:

A crew, not a problem. Me, hell No :)

Na, if done well using the right gear the only problem will be the voice in your head screaming 'TOO SMALL get me off this now!!!'

We commonly make halyards and other things by laminating like Carpe has and often for the same reason. small is light and plenty strong but a right bitch to hang on to with cold hands or existing jammers so we layer other covers on top to bulk it out where needed. 

So, Pork Chop has 7 x 12mm halyards. What do you reckon the weight saving would be is you did us a tranche of these laminated replacement?

P measurement is about 14m

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11 hours ago, Addem said:

So, Pork Chop has 7 x 12mm halyards. What do you reckon the weight saving would be is you did us a tranche of these laminated replacement?

P measurement is about 14m

My guess is about 3-4 Heinekens. 

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On 11/03/2021 at 3:17 PM, KM... said:

Talking UHMwPE in general, splicing is preferred as this fibre and knots are knot mates. Tie a bowline in this material and BOOM your strength drops about 50-60% instantly. So given the option splice. But in saying that many use the product not for strength but for their very low to no stretch so if that's what it's about knots make no difference to that. So Mr C you'll need to suss how much strength you need verse the size of line. If the required strength is pushing the lines break load then splice, if there is a big gap then tieing a knot is fine.

Notes:

UHMwPE = Ultra High Molecular Weight Polyethylene

Spectra and Dyneema are brand names of a UHMwPE fibre made by Honeywell (some by Toyobo in Japan) and Royal DSM respectively. They are big in NZ as we are a tiny country so one or 2 players can dominate which closes the door to other options like Tokilon which is made by a mob called Mitsi thingy whotsit. These are all manufacturing very good constantly improving fibres.

Under those brand names we get rope manufacturer ones like the most well known Dynex, now called Dynice as they lost a court case over who owned the name. Then there is Armare with Superround, Speedplus and a few other variations, Marlow with D12 and a few others, Fineline with Advantage, Samson with a shed load. These are ropes made using assorted UHMwPE's, many being dyneema or spectra but some using what we call 'Chineema', chinese made UHMwPE's.

Some Chineemas are fine, some a bit iffy, some utter and complete sh*t likely to kill you. In the 4x4 game many are having dyneema bust as low loads...errr, hello, you've been sold Chineema dude. Generally in the rope game reputable manufacturers will use reputable Chineemas. But we have rope manufacturers selling Chineema as Dyneema, to us that is a sign of if they are going to 'fudge' the materials what else are they willing to fudge.

These UHMwPE ropes are Class 2 ropes. Std polyester double braids are Class 1 ropes.

You can splice bog std Polyester using a Class 2 splice perfectly fine, fiddler than a Class 1 but will work.

DO NOT splice a Class 2 rope using a Class 1 splice, all that does it totally negate any and all goodness the fancy core has. It also means you've just waste a shed load of coin.

What are class 1 and class 2 splices? Is it different techniques?

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23 hours ago, Addem said:

So, Pork Chop has 7 x 12mm halyards. What do you reckon the weight saving would be is you did us a tranche of these laminated replacement?

P measurement is about 14m

DTwo is a bit light and now has me thirsty which is a little dis-concerting mid morning...but I am building a new CRM file today for April 1 so bored shitless is the theme of the day :)

I'll crunch some numbers for you on Monday. I build a programme thingy I can run options thru and it spits out all manner of good sh*t including weights.

I tweaked my 930 halyards a little, not huge, and took a little time to pick the right string for each application. The new set was 2.9kg less than the old set. When you have a genuine noodle rig 2.9 is a lot.

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37 minutes ago, Vivaldi said:

What are class 1 and class 2 splices? Is it different techniques?

Oh yes very much so and it is very important to get it right especially when using fancy cores. By 'fancy cores' I means dyneemas, spectras, vectrans, kevlars, PBO and those fibres NOT the older school Polyester, Nylon, Polyprop.

There are many ropes for many applications made many ways so the following is a bit general and with boats and halyards as the ropes intended end use.

The fancy cores are Class 2 as they are all about the core, the cover is only there for handing and pretty not strength. All the strength and goodness is the core only.

The older school no fancy are Class 1. The cover is for handling and pretty plus it is a structural member so has a very significant input into the ropes load carrying. Generally speaking 50% of the load is taken by the cover and 50% by the core.

In a Class 1 splice you splice the cover into the core as each takes 50% of the load so out the end comes a full strength splice, less the allowance for bending and twisting the fibers in the splice which does reduce strength a little. Industry standard is to work on 10-15% lose but a good splicer will usually get less lose than that.

A Class 2 splice is a core into the core splice. So when we splice those we extract the core and splice it back into itself before tucking all of that way under the cover to make it look purdy.

If we did a Class 2 splice on a old school class 1 rope all we will be doing is torturing ourselves as we would end up with a nice splice that has the same strength as a C1 when we could have got the same by using a far easier to do C1 splice.

But if we do a C1 splice in a fancy cored C2 rope we'll have an easy splice but one with only the maximum strength of what the cover alone can hold. So in say Addems 12mm Dyneema halyard a C1 splice would make those halyard no stronger than bog standard polyester double braid. Addem's halyard strength will drop from 1000's to 100's of kilos and all the money spend on the fancy was a total waste of time.

We do regularly get ropes in that have busted due to someone using a C1 splice on a C2 rope. Sadly some of those splices people paid for.

How do you tell if your ropes got a c1 or C2 splice? Most of the time you can't, a good splicer maybe be able to feel how the splice is constructed under the cover and work it out but unless you pull one apart it's near impossible. If the splice is uncover then it's easy as splicing naked core is a form of a C2 splice anyway.

Doing a C2 is tricky and not to be taken lightly as if you cock it up you have strength issues and may just be buggering $100's of rope. Class 1's are easier for most and the best to start with, being sorted on those will make learning a C2 far easier. 

Some ropes are easy to splice, some are near impossible and there is all those in the middle. So a good splicer will be able to 'feel' the individual ropes and usually know going in if it is going to a be a prick or not and adjust their technique around that.

Beware of You tube and the interweb. There are a sh*t load of good looking videos and info that will take you down the wrong path and into the danger zone as they are just wrong. If you're hunting for instructions take some time to suss who is behind any you find, keep clear of randoms unless they have good verifiable credentials.

Note here the above is 'general' in nature and there are other variables like parallel cores, triple braids and of course the lovely product being sold by the likes of Bumblings that has a core made from rolled up dishcloths.

 

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