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Fish

Reoccurring Engine Failure / Deisel Problem

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Gidday Fish.

 

Sounds like a fun problem! At least you know the engine is OK, which includes the injectors and pump. When I had problems all 3 of these were kaput. (Read: $$$$$$$). It didn't help when I tried to take the injector pump apart. :oops: :oops: These are complicated little suckers full of delicate shims and all sorts. If you don't have all the gear, don't even start!! They are specialised items to set up too.

 

1. I can back up what others have said. Get a CAV filter/seperator, with a few spare filters. They have saved my life so many times. If possible, route the pipework so the filter seperator is close to the engine cover. That way you can check the bowl for water as you go. The nice thing about these units is that you can have water in the bowl, but that doesn't mean it's gone to the engine. You just drain it off, and away you go again. With a bit of possible sludge in your tank, you may end up changing filters a few times..

2. Get a new O ring for your filler. Cheap insurance.

3. Check that your tank vent is not blocked by removing at the tank and blowing through it.

4. Like Wheels said, check the diesel return line goes all the way to the tank.

 

Good ideas througout this thread. Should get you there.

 

Good luck!

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5) am I going mad and should I take up golf?

:lol: :lol: From my Golfing experience I'd say that would only accelerate your madness

 

Coming at your problem from a slightly differing angle. Over the last few months I've been having motor issues. Hard to start and wouldn't idle with occasional patchy running. Sent to Dr for full going over at which time I swapped motors so had to change connections. Doing that noticed the 'liner' of the fuel line had de-laminated, for lack of better word, so looked like it could have been occasionally acting like a non-return valve in backwards. New fuel line fitted and after the Dr's work things were massively improved. All was good but there was an occasional just didn't want to go without big tickles. No worries it's fecking motor and like software only put on the planet to piss with my head.

 

But last week I couldn't get the bitch to go at all. It wanted to but didn't quite get there. Motor doctor working on boat next door so said 'fix the cow'. A few hours later a call came in 'All good, grunge in the carbie'. Next day buggered if I could get it to go. Rang Dr who said Bugger going back for a look. After some head scratching and a few things the problem was traced to the CGI pack, a fecking 'black box'. Swapped black box and it starts instantly.

 

It appears the 'fuel issue' we (me and 2 Dr's) have been chasing was indeed the black box or at least a combo of box and fuel. These box things often go 'intermittent' on-off rather than just die instantly.

 

Is there a black box somewhere or something else maybe rather than fuel or only the fuel? Just mentioning that due to the above, it tricked 2 known and good Pro's, who, partially due to my explanation possibly, were looking in one area when it was actually a combo of issues.

 

Just sounds a bit weird your one to be fuel only especially after it looks like you have done all the right things. I'm thinking age may exclude the black box but a small bit of crap in the lines somewhere could be that non-return valve type deal I think I had. Any chance of blowing a nice bit of compressed air down the lines to shake loose any sticky crap? Just a thought after you saying it works fine when plugged into the jerry can.

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Following your logic that means that I probably had the diesel bug algae/bacteria before I purchased the vessel but the dead matter wasn't visible at the inspection.

I would say most likely, or it is possible it got dumped into your tank from a crook underground tank. Has been known to happen.

 

KM, the black box must mean we are talking petrol and the black box would be the powerpack. Yes they do indeed cause those issues. It is quite possible that the fuel issue highlighted the ppack issue.

 

Back to Diesel, we have had over the years slight variations in the chemical make up. It depends on where it comes from for one and that changed as various changes to the Sulphur content changed. The initial change was in simply finding a low sulphur content crude. But the real big change was when Sulphur was physicaly removed completely. During that process, many of the "aromatics" were also removed. In away that is a good thing. Less nasties coming out of the exhaust. But the problem is that these also acted as Solvents and that kept hoses and seals soft and slightly swollen. When the Aromatics went, the rubber components all dried and shrunk and became brittle. So vehicles soon had issues with leaks. The fact that sulphur was removed meant a few other additives had to be added. But like any thing that you add, it means it can un add itself by settling or evaporating or going off or what ever. So we started seeing fuels that seemed to go stale. For Diesel it is not a major issue because a Diesel is such that it would run on gumboots if you could get the things into the chambers. For Petrol, that was a completely different matter. The fuel will just not burn correctly once it is 6 months old. It is unbelievable the number of highy embarresd outboard owners that send the outboard in for a service because it just will not start and run and have it returned with the only thing done being a new tank of fuel supplied.

I believe we may start seeing some real big issues when we finally go to Biofuel added to the Diesel. But how far way that will be yet I dont know.

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KM, the black box must mean we are talking petrol and the black box would be the powerpack. Yes they do indeed cause those issues. It is quite possible that the fuel issue highlighted the ppack issue.

 

Knot these days even diesels have them. That's why if I buy a big diesel it won't have a black box. Which coincidently is the very same reason a well known gentleman deep into the diesel engine game just fitted non-black box diesels into his own boat when he had a lot more choices than all of us.

 

My post was more a 'don't get to fixated one one thing when there is a chance that could be masking or taking focus away something else that could be contributing' sort of the thing. As I found out last week, that scenario can happen quite easily even with the Pros.

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Remember KM, it runs fine when he just puts the hose into a 20 litre container of diesel.... Seems to indicate the problem is at the tank somewhere.. Not with the engine itself. I'd still fit the CAV filter though...

CAV diesel filter.jpg

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Knot these days even diesels have them.

Yes indeed they do. And the day of having a Diesel run on and on while Armagedon is happeing all around you, sadly has gone. In saying that though, the Diesels black boxes are engine managment systems and they set the timing of when the injector things have to do there jiggle about to squirt the fuel in. If it fails, you are screwed. But fortunately electronics are fairly robust these days. The main cause of concern will be in how they protect these electronic systems and their connections when in a Marine Environment.

The one system I get nervous about on boats is the Elecronic throttles, gear shifts and stearing.

Actually, there's another thing in modern cars now. Many modern cars have gone away from hydraulic stearing. Came across one just the other day and the stearing is all electronic. Hmmmm, not sure I like that idea.

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Hi Guys, thanks for all the replies,

We actually have one fo the CAV filters with glass bowl at the bottom. Only problem is its in a darn near impossible area to access - the flexibility of a 13 year old Russian gymnast is required to get a good look at it... Am currently considering repositioning it to be able to see it and assess this problem.

 

Went for another run today with the engine running off the jerry can - didn't miss a beat. That would give me some confidence its ntot a black box problem - don't think black boxes were inveted when this puppy was installed anyway. We were initially concerned there was an air leak one of the filters and checked that. Runs fine on the jerry can so are looking at issues with the fuel tanks itself again.

 

The breather looks munted so I'm going to check that and can changed it fairly easily. So the big question is the deisel bug and shite in the tank.

 

So if we've had deisel bug and am now using a good biocide, its likely there is still lumps of dead biomater floating about / getting stirred up etc? We're talking about pulling the tank out of the boat but that will be an epic job. Farrari, you got your tank cut open? was that just so you could clean it properly? How / where do you get a fuel assessment?

 

The return line goes straight back to the tank, Wheels, were you sayingthats good, or it should tee into the lift line?

 

We've also already replaced all of the flexible houses, incase they were delaminating on the inside and becoming non-return valves.

 

Is there any way of cleaning the tank out with any confidence without taking it out of the boat? Maybe use a solvent and pump it out? Any solvents emmulsify desiel bug shite?

What about a scope thingy for having a good look inside without removing the tank?

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Yes it is possible Bug is still in there. Yes there are chemicals that will disolve the stuff, but your tank will end up mimicing a shower rose more than a fuel tank. So the only way you can be really sure it is clean is to either get into it, which you probably can not easily do, or flush it. There are a couple of ways of doing this. One is called Fuel Polishing. And there are a couple of ways they do that also. the most complex is a high pressure pump that acts like a waterblaster and a hose that flails around inbside the tank. The fuel is drained to a series of high volume expensive Racor fuel filters and back to the pump and returned to that tank over and over till the fuel runs clean and clear. Then there are variations of that ranging down from that expensive unit, to the cheapest which is just a fuel pump that continuoly runs the fuel through a filter around and around. But it won't remove anything stuck in there. In the Us, there are people that have a set up like this that continually runs the fuel around even when the boat is tied up. That way they know the fuel is kept clean. Bit over the top if you ask me.

 

And no I return the fuel return line back into the main fuel line at the Filter. On most filters, and that CAV unit has it, you will see it has four fittings. Two in and two out. Just fit a fitting to the other in. They are marked with arrows. The returning fuel comes back in at the filter and mixes with the cooler fuel at that point. This stops warm fuel from being drained to the tank which heats up the tank and then later when it cools, draws in cool damp air. As long as the return line goes to the input of the filter, then you can not pressurize the reutrn line. If it was after the pump, many engines will not want to run with the return line under pressure.

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Fish, I had Marine Diagnostics perform the fuel analysis. It came back as a grade C where grade A is good and grade D is don't start the engine cause it will damage it. When they looked into the tank they could see a biomass of algae (Assume dead algae remains from what Wheels mentioned earlier). It looked like an old rotten straw front door mat when I had a look.

 

I used Bug Hunters to cut open the top of the tank and refit a stainless porthole of sorts. This way I can open it up again if I need too. They were able to do this with the tank still in the boat. My tank is under the port side seat in the main cabin so there was pretty good access.

 

Ian Meikle from Meikle Marine (027 4192140) put me on to these guys. In fact I let him arrange the whole lot as it was easier than chasing everyone. He had just saved me $15K on a motor rebuild due to his diligence so I wasn't about to penny pinch.

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