robinm 2 Posted October 12, 2016 Share Posted October 12, 2016 My wife and I have decided to bite the bullet and upgrade our Lotus 9.2 (yes the one with the recently replaced batteries and anchor) for an offshore cruising boat to get ready for a 2018 trip to the Pacific for the season and possibly beyond. We've looked at boats in a few places, but the two close to home are both quite compelling to us: Impulse II - Oceans 12 - https://www.trademe.co.nz/Browse/Listing.aspx?id=1046580204Stornoway - Salthouse 48 - http://www.trademe.co.nz/Browse/Listing.aspx?id=788138132There are a lot of pros and cons: The Oceans 12 well kept and is lovely down below, the engine bay is like a dental surgery in it's cleanliness and orderliness, and the owner is happy to show us all over the boat, it has an encapsulated keel. There are not a lot of flaws that I can see, except that we'd need a new rig, and all the Cat 1 gear, it has no SSB and has reasonably small winches in the hard dodger covered cockpit with halyard winches on the mast and slab reefing on a cutter rig. It does have a nice boarding platform which is a family pleaser. The vberth is small, but our 9 year old will be happy in there.The Salthouse 48 is also a nice boat, it's a centreboard, not quite as well kept as the Oceans 12, it seems it has been largely unused for a couple of years, but I think it's pretty good. The owner acknowledges the teak decks need work but it has all the gear, radar, ssb, lots of sails etc etc. Big 120hp engine. It has leisurefurl main and nice big self tailers in the cockpit. Soft dodger as well. It seems to need some work around the windows as there are small cracks appearing in the fairing below the windows and probably that speaks generally to the condition.We're really scratching out heads here, we think we'd be up for the same costs either way - but that's not allowing for work to replace the teak decks (as an aside, any idea of the cost of glassing instead of replacing?) My main question is, what should we consider when choosing? e.g. 48 is too big / 40 too small / Oceans 12 less seaworthy / Salthouse needs too much work.Look forward to your sage advice, thanks,Robin Quote Link to post Share on other sites
raz88 96 Posted October 12, 2016 Share Posted October 12, 2016 My experience has been that buying a tidy boat that has been used regularly is a much better option than one that needs things doing and hasn't been used much in a few years. It's amazing how starting to use a boat that has sat leads to breakages on stuff that's got stuck/corroded/rotten while sitting around. And one that has obvious maintenance jobs that haven't been done will also have less obvious things that are harder to spot also needing doing. Also, 48 feet of old teak decks would frighten me. If they need replacing it's a big and very expensive job. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
robinm 2 Posted October 12, 2016 Author Share Posted October 12, 2016 Thanks Raz, I'm pretty uncomfortable about those decks too, the odd exposed screw makes me worry about what's underneath. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Island Time 1,239 Posted October 12, 2016 Share Posted October 12, 2016 Robin, congrats - I bet this is a decision you'll never regret! Yeah, agree about the teak. $$$ The Oceans 12 is a good solid boat, but not a great sailor. IMO. But either boat would do the job. IMO a 40 ft boat is great for a couple. 50ft is OK, but quite a lot more $ to maintain, and has to be well sorted with sail handling as everything is that much bigger. I was recently on a Swan 52 and I could not lift the no1 headsail.... Good luck with your selection. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
too_tall 15 Posted October 12, 2016 Share Posted October 12, 2016 Yes, that teak looks nice, but ouch when it needs money spent. No ifs, only when. Also agreed that 50' is a whole lot more cost and work than a 40'. Yes, probably near twice the usable space, but do you need it if it is just you and your wife? I have seen people circumnavigate in 30'. That is a bit small. 40' is enough space to be comfortable, but small enough to be manageable. Consider your partner/wife/kids handling sails... Quote Link to post Share on other sites
robinm 2 Posted October 12, 2016 Author Share Posted October 12, 2016 IT, do you mean the Ocean 12 design's not a good sailor because it is heavy and needs a bit of a breeze to get it going, or something else? Thanks all for the encouragement, I'm feeling comfortable about removing the salthouse so maybe I just needed my instincts confirmed. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Island Time 1,239 Posted October 12, 2016 Share Posted October 12, 2016 IMO the Oceans 12 is slow compared to many other 40ft/12m boats. Speed means more flexibility in routing, and less time in the ocean exposed to the weather. Its a nice boat otherwise, with good room etc for her size. The modern trend to high sided large volume boats is a detriment in sea keeping, and can adversely effect the AVS. Is there a stability curve (GZ curve) available for the Oceans 12? it would be interesting. I'm NOT saying they are not seaworthy, many have been offshore. It would be fine for a Pacific Islands cruise in season. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
armchairadmiral 411 Posted October 12, 2016 Share Posted October 12, 2016 Good advice there. Have you considered Young 43 / Farr 1220 type ? They sail very well. No,I don't have one for sale ! Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Battleship 100 Posted October 12, 2016 Share Posted October 12, 2016 I'd say it's no contest, the only advantage with the salthouse is that it would probably be more comfortable hove to riding out a gale, it will be more expensive to maintain and would likely be slower on average. Yes the oceans are a bit slow compared to a modern cruiser racer but still go ok compared to most cruising boats and they have very comfortable accommodations for long term living once you get there. What makes you think it needs a new rig? Or do you just mean new standing rigging? 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Jon 360 Posted October 12, 2016 Share Posted October 12, 2016 When I first saw your thread I thought the Salthouse but once I saw the transom and decks I'd say don't touch it with a 48' barge pole, yes would be more comfortable at sea and more room at anchor but $$$$$ plus your going to live in and out of the water in the islands plus landing fish ? The Oceans 12 looks well cared for and would be an option / starting point but before you get too far down the track I'd seriously consider either chartering in Tonga or cruising with friends for a week or two as liveability is one of the most important things in a cruising yacht as you spend only about 10% of your time on passage the rest is mostly at anchor or short trips. I wouldn't go smaller than 40' but 42-46 is probably ideal for a family but still easily enough for a couple. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Kevin McCready 83 Posted October 13, 2016 Share Posted October 13, 2016 I've sailed with 4 guys on a 40 to cross an ocean. Plenty of room and 4 was a good number for watchkeeping on a long voyage. I'd want to know the AVS too!! Quote Link to post Share on other sites
robinm 2 Posted October 13, 2016 Author Share Posted October 13, 2016 We did look at a couple of Farr 1220s but they just aren't very well looked after boats. The centre cockpit of the oceans 12 feels very reassuring as a place for a 9 year old to be sitting. I've emailed Alan Wright for his opinion as well and hopefully some more details on the design. Where would one normally find an AVS for a New Zealand designed boat? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Kevin McCready 83 Posted October 13, 2016 Share Posted October 13, 2016 Alan should be able to calculate the AVS or be able to help. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
John B 106 Posted October 13, 2016 Share Posted October 13, 2016 Must get myself an acronym dictionary. I'll take a guess.... Stabilty index? I've often looked at those Oceans boats. As the red mist of racing a boat has dissolved somewhat, and the realisation that no sensible human organises a passage to the islands on the nose, the question becomes can it go reasonably to windward if it must but more importantly , will it travel at a reasonable speed with the wind from about 70 through 180 degrees. I suspect that boat would trot along at 7 or 7.5 fairly easily in 20 knots aft of the beam. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
DrWatson 378 Posted October 13, 2016 Share Posted October 13, 2016 angle of vanishing stability Quote Link to post Share on other sites
John B 106 Posted October 13, 2016 Share Posted October 13, 2016 Cheers Doc, same thing then eh. Whats the other in vogue term.. STIX? Since Alan Wright can't design a bad boat and since he did design the Oceans to go to sea , I don't imagine there will be an issue. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Island Time 1,239 Posted October 13, 2016 Share Posted October 13, 2016 We did look at a couple of Farr 1220s but they just aren't very well looked after boats. The centre cockpit of the oceans 12 feels very reassuring as a place for a 9 year old to be sitting. I've emailed Alan Wright for his opinion as well and hopefully some more details on the design. Where would one normally find an AVS for a New Zealand designed boat? Robin, I agree, the issue is that the Kiwi boats are now getting old. Mine included (nearing 30 yrs). Finding a good one of any design is now becoming more difficult. It is a problem. Not many boats of any design are properly maintained. While a centre cockpit boat does seem more secure to you at this time, esp for the kids, consider this. Kids have a lower centre of gravity, and are actually much more adept sooner than most adults aboard. A centre cockpit is higher above the centre of rotation than an aft cockpit, and is therefore subject to more rolling movement. An aft cockpit is further from the centre of rotation and therefore more subject to movement from pitch and yaw. Everything is a compromise! Your Kids will do just fine in either (ours were a similar age when we did the pacific the first time). Buy the best boat you can find in your price bracket. It may well be that the Oceans 12 is that boat! Unfortunately they all cost way more to set up and maintain than you first think - which is, of course, why many are run down. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
robinm 2 Posted October 14, 2016 Author Share Posted October 14, 2016 Thanks everybody. We've just been back down to take another look and if we can manage to get the right price we'll be in the market for a surveyor! Thanks for the different points of view it's very comforting to have your help. Does anyone have a recommendation for a Wellington surveyor? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Battleship 100 Posted October 14, 2016 Share Posted October 14, 2016 As an aside, I am not unbiased when it comes to the Oceans. My father was a partner in the company that built them. I spent a large chunk of my childhood for a few years attending the launchings of most of them. Had a great time tearing round inside the big one before it went overseas. If you want more info on them Mike McComack the rigger in Tauranga would be worth a call he did a lot of miles on them and pushed them harder than most owners would. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Chewing Gum 17 Posted October 14, 2016 Share Posted October 14, 2016 Centre cockpit not nearly as good as aft cockpit for the reasons IT mentioned plus cop more weather and make the main cabin much smaller with usually high and steep companionway steps. Also not nearly as good at anchor as you are a long way from the water and more difficult to get on and off the boat. I can't think of any advantages for centre cockpit and yes give old teak decks a miss. The best boat is definitely one that is looked after and someone else has spent the money on it. These days you don't need SSB, and Iridium satellite system is a better alternative. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
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