Island Time 1,239 Posted October 30, 2016 Author Share Posted October 30, 2016 I've been a bit reluctant to get in on this post but,reading the above about tiller pilots - expensive, unreliable, power hungry, difficult if not impossible user repair, why would you even consider one for a coastal or offshore voyage when a perfectly good proven alternative exists in the form of either a trim tab or servo pendulum self steering gear? I have an Autohelm tiller pilot. We use it whilst motoring and it works very well and of course the alternator keeps up with the current draw. But as soon as there's wind enough to sail we switch to the self steering. Self steering is cheap. I built mine for $160 and anyone with a few tools and basic handyman skills can do the same. And if you can build it then you can repair it, at sea, in the unlikely event that the gear needs it. And of course, energy consumption is not an issue. So I'm bound to question, why pass on a proven, reliable and cost effective means of steering the vessel in favour of an expensive, failure prone, energy hungry and generally irreparable piece of kit? It ain't progress. Chris, I have no issue with wind vane steering - however nothing is bulletproof and there certainly are instances of these failing in passage as well as APs. They dont suit some boats (mounting issues etc), they dont do off course alarms, steer to waypoint, auto tack etc etc. Certainly they suit some folks... Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Guest 000 Posted October 30, 2016 Share Posted October 30, 2016 True, and as Willow says, he doesn't like all that sh@t dangling off his transom - a perfectly valid point although I find their elegant simplicity attractive. Like the bicycle they represent the epitome of form and function, a view obviously shared by the German Museum of Art and Technology who for many years had a Windpilot Pacific Plus on permanent display. And as Steve says, they do take a bit of tinkering to get them to perform correctly, unlike the tillerpilot which is a point and push the button device. Blondie Hasler was the father of modern self steering gear and I his avid pupil and I recall him saying during the one and only passage that I made with him on Jester that self steering made him a better sailor, given that proper sail trim was so important to its successful operation. On my last boat we had every new whizz bang device that I erroneously thought necessary to enjoyable sailing, and on my present boat have purposefully gone minimalist. This is why I built my own dinghy,cabin heater, self steering gear etc. As far as possible I want to be able to fix all essential equipment myself because I want to spend the summer sailing anchorage to anchorage, not repair shop to repair shop. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Steve Pope 243 Posted October 30, 2016 Share Posted October 30, 2016 Yeah IT. I had read it in the first post, but after coming back from New Cal the tired old brain had already expunged that bit of info. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Black Panther 1,591 Posted October 30, 2016 Share Posted October 30, 2016 A vane is enormously more reliable than anything else except maybe a grunty hydraulic system. If you think otherwise you are probably deluding yourself Quote Link to post Share on other sites
harrytom 648 Posted October 30, 2016 Share Posted October 30, 2016 about 6 months Quote Link to post Share on other sites
too_tall 15 Posted October 30, 2016 Share Posted October 30, 2016 TT, sounds similar to mine, but mine has a RPU160 with a custom ram. I have a couple of suggestions. Is AC 42 on the latest firmware? A really good upgrade for you would be to get the latest firmware if you're not on it, and remove the RC42 and replace it with a precision 9. This makes a huge difference to the course stability in heavy seas in particular (its a solid state compass with no moving parts, roll, pitch and yaw compensation, and is almost immune to movement/shock). While you are at it, check the firmware version of the AP24.... i will look into what FW is on the AC42 - I think that last time I looked ( 3 years ago? ) it was the most current. What are the prices on the Precision 9? I don't recall it being an option when we installed ours. Sounds a bit like the self steering module in one of my tractors in what it does. How is the sensitivity to interference like compared to the RC42? The RPU is more or less just the pump portion of the HLD system is it? We had no reason to get a custom ram made up, although it would most likely have been cheaper. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
too_tall 15 Posted October 30, 2016 Share Posted October 30, 2016 A vane is enormously more reliable than anything else except maybe a grunty hydraulic system. If you think otherwise you are probably deluding yourself As reliable, if not more so, as they don't rely on batteries, charging systems etc. However, far less convenient or easy to use, and, as a few have noted, clutter etc. Its as much a personal preference as much as anything else, but outs soon found its way into the shed once the Hydraulic system was in place and had done a few shorter voyages. It was considered to be refitted prior to the last islands departure, but consideration did not turn into action. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
wheels 543 Posted October 30, 2016 Share Posted October 30, 2016 There are certainly big advantages to a Cruising Boat having wind steering gear. But for a situation like KM's, having that stuff on the stern would be a major detriment.For me (and I still don't have this yet) I want a Pilot that I can push a button and have it auto tack for me. Remember, I have a heavy Boat and often single handing it. So, many times i wish I could push a button and then just worry about taking care of the sheets. And interestingly, even steering close to the wind is a major plus. Once again, something not so important when cruising on an offshore passage perhaps, but along our coast, the wind can change angle ever so slightly. Wind steering is great for that. Otherwise you have to set the steering deeper to the wind to add in that fudge factor of wind angle.Oh well, One day maybe. Strange, but second hand AP's are not something that you see for sale much and I don't have a First Born to trade to buy a new one. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Island Time 1,239 Posted October 30, 2016 Author Share Posted October 30, 2016 i will look into what FW is on the AC42 - I think that last time I looked ( 3 years ago? ) it was the most current. What are the prices on the Precision 9? I don't recall it being an option when we installed ours. Sounds a bit like the self steering module in one of my tractors in what it does. How is the sensitivity to interference like compared to the RC42? The RPU is more or less just the pump portion of the HLD system is it? We had no reason to get a custom ram made up, although it would most likely have been cheaper. Yeah, the precision 9 is new. It's better shielding than the RC42. Specs are: Dimensions: H: 36 mm (1.42”), W & D: 119 mm (4.69”) Weight: Module:|165 g (5.8 oz), Bracket:|130 g (4.6 oz) Supply and interface: 8-16 V via NMEA 2000 Power consumption: 0.4 W NMEA 2000 Load Equivalence No. (LEN): 1 NMEA 2000 ports (input/output): 1 Calibration: Automatic (User Prompted) Repeatability: ± 1.0° (or better) Roll/Pitch range: ± 45° Heading accuracy: ± 2° after calibration Dynamic performance: with random excitation of ± 10° at max 1 Hz:|Heading error Environmental protection: IPx7 Compass safe distance: 0.5 m (1.7’) Temperature range operation: -25 to +65°C (-13 to +149°F) Temperature range Storage: -30 to +70°C (-22 to +158°F) RRP is $1089 incl GST, which I can improve on for anyone on crew.org who wants one. Send me an email or pm. The Navico AP item most prone to sensitivity is the rudder angle sensor. If your AP goes mad when you transmit on SSB for example, it will almost certainly be the rudder sensor.... Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Steve Pope 243 Posted October 30, 2016 Share Posted October 30, 2016 Is there any reason why you cannot set up a TP fore and aft on the tiller with it steering the boat via a trim tab? If this is possible it would bring the TP inside the boat rather than hanging over the stern. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
ex TL systems 63 Posted October 31, 2016 Share Posted October 31, 2016 you can steer the main rudder from fore and aft too, by fitting a smaller tiller at right angle to the rudder, a small Wharram cat I believe went around the world like this,with the pilot inside. you can also fit the TP way further out along the tiller to reduce loads, both already mentioned a few days ago. Not sure if mounting it on the tiller would work as the pilot would be affected/responding to the movement of the tiller instead of the boat Quote Link to post Share on other sites
hb1849 12 Posted October 31, 2016 Share Posted October 31, 2016 It seems crazy that after all these years of making basically the same tiller pilot products, these companies can't make them reliable. I design stuff like this for a job -- and waterproofing can certainly be challenging, and the moving ram adds to this -- but it's not rocket science. Surprised they don't look at potting the PCBA (or do they??) as a backup too -- then at least any damage due to moisture ingress would be to obvouis stuff like motor/pot/mech components etc. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Island Time 1,239 Posted October 31, 2016 Author Share Posted October 31, 2016 They are made for their target market. Mostly smallish boats, mostly sheltered water, and short duration - few hours type thing, once or twice a month. Completely different to an ocean passage, or continuous cruising. They suit the target market very well, which is more than 95 % of there use. To make a really robust unit, the price would be much higher, and I reckon they would struggle to sell much quantity at all - 500? 1000? Not economic. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
hb1849 12 Posted October 31, 2016 Share Posted October 31, 2016 Absolutely, but there do seem to be a lot of compaints about water ingress... Even people using them lightly resorting to plastic bags and so on. No reason they shouldn't remain waterproof untill the ram bushings wear significantly... Good vs. average waterproofing doesn't usually add much cost to a product -- just design/development time. To be fair -- I don't own one. Maybe I'm getting the wrong impression -- people with non-leaky tiller pilots probably don't talk about them! Quote Link to post Share on other sites
John B 106 Posted October 31, 2016 Share Posted October 31, 2016 Some sort of extra cover over the tillerpilot is still a good idea, my last one failed after i mistakenly left it out in the cockpit overnight and it rained. There is a guy in Te Atatu Efrontier that was able to repair it. I am looking to cover my new tillerpilot with something like a plastic toolbox where you can open the lid to get to the pilot controls and the ram comes out through a hole , as long it keeps most of the water off it . The other idea that can work is to mount the pilot under cover with a rod or cable to link to the tiller. The pilot will still work mounted inline rather than across the boat, so you can mount the pilot inside pointing back with a rod linked to a bar at 90 degrees to the tiller at the stock. Instructions state pilot needs to be fitted around 18 in or 400 or so mm along the tiller but I have used one on a cat mounted near 5 ft along because that was where it suited the boat, Worked perfectly and very light to steer there although you could not use the pilot to tack which was not a problem . I am yet to fit my Raymarine TP to my Tiki 38 cat as well as a windvane, but I think that whatever system you have it is a good idea to have some sort of backup plan and a tillerpilot being selfcontained could come in handy halfway across an ocean if your heavy duty system fails in some electronic impossible to fix way. One could have saved us having to handsteer from Bundaberg to Opua last year. Small TPs can also be use with trimtabs on the rudder or servo pendulum windvane systems, the less force they have to use the better, its unlikely they will last long if pushing even 30 kgs all day long. A well balanced boat should hold course with little pressure and only a few inches of travel at the tiller end, a pilot mounted here and kept dry should have a long and happy life I'm glad to see you say this , because along with my " what has boat size got to do with it, rudder weight or helm balance is more important'' statement, this has been a hobby horse theory of mine for years. Like all of us I've watched the helm while sailing on AP , or just as I'm helming the thing , and its very very seldom that you need lock to lock movement on the tiller when tracking. Most of the time a total of about 25 degrees would do it and usually a hell of a lot less. If I ever get around to doing it , my plan was to set up an adjustable base and tiller attachment, find an optimal sweet spot well out on the tiller so the pilot is destressed, not worry about tacking with it. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
raz88 96 Posted November 7, 2016 Share Posted November 7, 2016 I've a raymarine ap with a ram that works well but has started making a chattering noise when it's fully extended. Anyone know were to get it looked at? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
raz88 96 Posted November 7, 2016 Share Posted November 7, 2016 just had a look and it's an spx5. But assume it'll still be L & B who look after them. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
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