Halyard size

[Start Me Up 4]

Just pondering, after losing 2 halyards down the mast and replacing several others during the RNI2020.

Is it viable to replace all my 8mm dyneema double braid with 6mm? Maybe with an exoticish cover instead of polyester. My thinking comes about after we couldn't mouse a replacement at sea and it was a pain in the arse at Mangonui (thanks to the Edwards clan for sorting it in the end there). Then in Wellington the 8mm end got stuck at the spreader junction and again it was more fantastic riggers sorting it out again (Hurricane rigging).

The fault lies in the sheeve boxes and they will be fixed eventually but in the meantime I have an issue of not much room inside spar (carbon job) and would like to add an extra 3/4 spin halyard for peels etc eventually.

Opinions please.....boat Ross 930

[Island Time 1,278]

6mm dyneema is plenty strong for that I'd expect, but hard on the hands....

[Start Me Up 4]

Alright KM, 

What caused failures? All the halyard boxes had sharp edges, not rounded off in any manner. The main halyard also too tight a radius, would suit 6mm more.

Why go smaller? Both sets of riggers had issues getting the halyards past spreader connection point. Also more space inside to add another 3/4 halyard.

Clutches etc? I have some 4-8mm spinlocks, should do the job. Two would need to be replaced.

Why 6mm? Used 6mm for cunni, 3x reefs and outhaul. No issues with harken st winches or in the basic english clamcleats as well. Reef lines a wee bit fluffy but nothing major after 1200miles or so.

Agree with mouse line, just added it to my to do list!

[splat 56]

Agree with KM - I'm in the midst of replacing most of my running rigging also. All my clutches are either 6-12 or 8-14mm. New reefing lines are 8mm Poly outer/UHMWPE core which will be stripped and coverless where required.  The 8mm has good hand which I think will work well when I'm cold, tired and getting smashed. Do they need to be this diameter for overall strength - absolutely not. 

Main halyard is 8mm, Jib halyard is 8mm, Fractional kite 8mm, Masthead kite is 8mm, Topper is 8mm (can double as 2nd jib halyard). Outhaul tail is 8mm = in boom two to one is 7mm coverless  16 Carrier UHMWPE.

Vang, prod control, cunningham, keel lift,  in-haulers etc are all 6mm. 

Obviously going to 6mm throughout would reduce overall weight but an important thing to note is the rope design/construction. The number of carriers in the cover makes a massive difference IMHO to the overall feel, longevity and suitability of the subject rope. If I could afford to change all the clutches/ cleats to the right parameters I think 6mm max and less for others would work throughout the boat.

 

[DaveNoy 1]

Worth considering a “check” line on a MH halyard to turn it into a 3/4, I.e a 3mm line that feeds down the in the 3/4 halyard box with a low friction ring that the MH halyard feeds through. Pull it on and a MH halyard turns into a 3/4.

On a SR26 everything was 6mm, apart from the mainsheet and jib sheet. No complaints.

[Deep Purple 517]

13 minutes ago, DaveNoy said:

Worth considering a “check” line on a MH halyard to turn it into a 3/4, I.e a 3mm line that feeds down the in the 3/4 halyard box with a low friction ring that the MH halyard feeds through. Pull it on and a MH halyard turns into a 3/4.

On a SR26 everything was 6mm, apart from the mainsheet and jib sheet. No complaints.

Yeah much preferable than having 3 halyards, masthead and 2 fractional. Make one do both

[Start Me Up 4]

46 minutes ago, DaveNoy said:

Worth considering a “check” line on a MH halyard to turn it into a 3/4, I.e a 3mm line that feeds down the in the 3/4 halyard box with a low friction ring that the MH halyard feeds through. Pull it on and a MH halyard turns into a 3/4.

On a SR26 everything was 6mm, apart from the mainsheet and jib sheet. No complaints.

Cool idea, will pinch this thankyou.

[Start Me Up 4]

Right.. 

1/ chafe should not happen, agreed. 2 masts were built at same time and my crew tracked down the other, guess what same problem..

2/ room inside the rig, bugged if I know. Suspect when I remove the rig and remove spreaders we'll have a better idea ( in the meantime i want to go sailing with limited reduction to sailing time and budget)

3/ agreed with mast, maybe sell all clutches and replace with decent clamcleats for those lines that may need instant release 

The two lines that parted, one was Italian, the other Kiwi. The rest that had major wear were all Kiwi. Hurricane rigging put a chafe guard on the 3/4 and main halyard (Italian&Kiwi) in Wellington. I trimmed both in Napier due to wear (definately slowed things down though).

[Zozza 319]

I purchased very expensive 6-12 clutches which are now useless as my 10mm line has swelled a bit with salt water exposure, and no won't fit through the 6-12 clutch, so I am having to replace them with 8-14 clutches.  Ridiculous - lucky I am doing a straight swap with a sailing mate, but still annoys me - yet another post lockdown job to remove and replace something on my boat when I just want to go sailing.

[Jon 386]

What SMU found isn’t unusual to happen in the RNI or similar type races

yachts that do mostly harbour and the odd coastal race never have a their halyards under tension in the same position for days at a time as you are changing sails at very slight change in direction. However 4 days on the west coast even with just a lazy 3m swell will often create problems you could never imagine in most of the yachts we do.

1m of chafe gaurd at the top and at the jammer isn’t unusual on the boats that do theses events.

also the halyards that are under load should always be backed up either to a winch or similar 

[splat 56]

KM - Got any pics of your running rigging set up you want to share?

[Deep Purple 517]

So KM I’m wanting to add a fractional snubber to a masthead genny halyard. Can I get away with 3mm with a loop that clips onto something at the base of the mast with a light tail. It wouldn’t be hauled under load

boat is a Shaw 750

[DaveNoy 1]

1 hour ago, Puff said:

So KM I’m wanting to add a fractional snubber to a masthead genny halyard. Can I get away with 3mm with a loop that clips onto something at the base of the mast with a light tail. It wouldn’t be hauled under load

boat is a Shaw 750

Think we had 5mm ish (where it went through a clutch), with the cover stripped off on the rest of the line. On an SR. Got a thrashing, and was fairly old (7years plus)and never broke. 
Possibly originally set up by Booboo. 
 

Always thought it might be a good idea to feed some bungy into the core for a couple of meters just to keep it a little taught when hoisting as a MH, can tangle using a MHO. Never got round to it.

[Deep Purple 517]

1 hour ago, DaveNoy said:

Think we had 5mm ish (where it went through a clutch), with the cover stripped off on the rest of the line. On an SR. Got a thrashing, and was fairly old (7years plus)and never broke. 
Possibly originally set up by Booboo. 
 

Always thought it might be a good idea to feed some bungy into the core for a couple of meters just to keep it a little taught when hoisting as a MH, can tangle using a MHO. Never got round to it.

Snap, great minds think alike. I was thinking of putting a bungy inside the mast that would take up the slack

[Deep Purple 517]

1 hour ago, Knot Me... maybe said:

A technique we use a lot on all manner of things from kite poles to lifelines

 

I shall be in touch .....

Once Miss C-19 lets me drive to Queenstown and back

 

[Deep Purple 517]

So this is how i see it.

The pink section is where the snubber has shock cord. The amount of compression is the distance between the exit boxes.

The small ring on the snubber halyard near the start of the pink is a stopper that will fit the jamb. It could be loop. It is the same distance from the jammer as the distance between the exit boxes. When it is cleated the bungy is drawn out and the snubber is tight to the fractional exit box

When released the snubber low friction ring is held by the bungy. If the masthead halyard is hoisted the ring moves to the top

The tail of the snubber is knotted to stop it retracting into the mast and so the low friction ring is held against the mast by the bungy

[Deep Purple 517]

Yeah the bungy is possibly overkill. But a thin line with a loop that hooks over something sounds good. I'll know more when I get the boat which is a month away thanks to bat-flu

[chariot 244]

Look forward to seeing a new rocket on the waters of Mercury Bay.

[Hydro 1]

Back in the day we had titanium halyard clips on the mast that clipped into the headboard shackle/ ring. Thus no weight on halyards.

 

On the JIB we had a stainless halyard lock that the head of the jibs "shackle" pulled into. Then used a Cunningham to tension. 

 

Before that we had the last 2feet of the halyards spliced in wire ( where the sat in sheaves/ exit boxes)

Fixing the areas where they chafe is the solution for dyneema. Going smaller diameter will not totally eliminate chafe.

[Marshy 30]

Smoke wagon has exactly what you are describing without the bungy. Works really well and we havent found a need to have the snubber tight when not in use (i.e. dont need the bungy.
One masthead halyard that snubbs down to a fractional.

Ours just goes in a V Cleat at the base of the mast i think - will go for a stroll next door to where boat is stored later this morning out and have a look - thats the bow girls territory not mine so cant remember