Neil Roberts Day

[twisty 176]

I'm sure few of you have heard of this guy. Not condoning his actions but he was certainly at the forefront of the anti state movement back in the day. Apparently there is a documentary being made about him.

http://ahnz.anarkiwi.co.nz/1982-neil-roberts-day/

[Black Panther 1,767]

That was an interesting read.  I'm thinking to post my father's story of ww2 and how he left an enthusiastic volunteer and came back a pacifist.

Has the makings of a good thread but please keep it clean so it doesn't get shut down.

Deck sanding now, then I'll think about that post.

[twisty 176]

Looking forward to it. They say there is no greater pacifist than a returned soldier.

[aardvarkash10 1,105]

I'm picking he would have been diagnosed with a mental health condition these days. 

An close friend of my parents was in charge of the Computer Centre around that time.  It was state of the art when it was built, but like most IT it became obsolete quickly.

[Psyche 807]

I am a great fan of James K Baxters poetry, His father was a conscientious objector and got treated absolutely disgracefully.

https://ww100.govt.nz/the-archibald-baxter-memorial-trust

 

[Black Panther 1,767]

Ok then. This is just my recollections gathered from numerous occasions over many years and he's been dead 34 years now. I'm sure even my brother and sister would remember differently but this is my story.

In 1939 when NZ declared war on Germany my father was 17 years old and couldn't wait to enlist. This was a time when long distance travel was an away game in Dargaville ( we lived in Whangarei). So an all expenses paid trip to Europe and all you had to do was kill some people seemed like a hell of a bargain and a bit of excitement. 

So he went to the middle of the north island for basic training.  A few weeks prior to departure someone in the army looked at his birth certificate.  Sorry son we can't send you overseas till you're 18, but you can stay here and help the next lot of recruits until then. So he waved goodbye to the guys he had trained with and stayed.

Fast forward a year and he's ready to ship out. But in the time he was waiting he had seen some of the friends he'd waved off come back in boxes, and his attitude had changed from let's go to how do I come back alive?

Another thing that had happened was he'd been told that as a volunteer he could choose which job he wanted in the army. Initially he was targeting sniper as he had discovered he was a pretty good shot. So he looked up the life expectancy of a sniper. On his next outing to the rifle range he shot a stray goat wandering behind the targets.  Double win, fresh meat and no longer under consideration for sniper.

Then he studied the stats a bit more and found the soldiers least likely to die were the ones operating the big guns behind the guys up front who were getting killed ( might have been a Bren? Gun? IT probably knows. So off to Africa as one of those.

 

He fought in a number of significant battles in North Africa the names of which I forget, but the story gets interesting again when they cross to the bottom of Italy.  There was quite a delay there while the Americans and the British argued over who should go first  and during that interlude Dad met and became smitten with a local young lady. So much so that when they started moving she followed in the time honored tradition of the camp follower.( her family had been executed).

Fast forward to Monte Cassino which I'm sure older readers would know about. Prior to engaging they were camped at the bottom of the hill for about 6 weeks. 

 

Background material,  in the army at that time all soldiers had to attend Sunday services unless they were out killing someone. 

For 5 weeks at the service he was told not to fire upon the monastery as it was God's house ( it was also where the German heavy artillery was housed). On the 6th week he was told shoot the sh*t out of the monastery it's only another building. He got up and left. 

Fast forward again and three days later he's staggering down the hill exhausted after three days and nights of heavy shelling. As aardvarkash10 says today he would be diagnosed as having PTSD. He also had a lump  of shrapnel lodged in his arse. And as he's walking down two military policemen are walking up the hill to arrest him. Turns out leaving the church service was not optional. 

Dad was about 5'8" and stocky. Today he might have been called a feisty little prick. He was also the current 8th army middle weight boxing champion. He was arrested but only after those first two redcaps called for reinforcements.

He spent a month locked up. But I think it was more hospital than  prison.  He convinced them he could swim in the ocean as part of his therapy.  Then would swim to a nearby beach to meet his Italian girlfriend. 

Now here's the fun bit. When he was finally caught having a romantic interlude to his prison sentence someone heard him speaking Italian with the young lady. When he gets out he's no longer on a big gun but driving around with some general as an interpreter. In his words he finally started to believe he would get home alive because generals don't get close to the fighting,  they drive up when it's all over. His job was to enter a surrendered town and find the mayor and help set up water, food,  sewerage etc.

Obviously he eventually made it back  to NZ but was never able to bring his then fiancé out.

But he remained disillusioned with wars and things military till his death in 1987. He seldom went near an RSA and one of my earliest memories is seeing him step out of an Anzac day parade walk home and throw his medals in a drawer never to be taken out again. ( I think my brother has them now).

And thus I grew up being told to avoid anything military and if it looks like a war on the horizon run the other way.

[Black Panther 1,767]

Additional notes

He loved the novel catch 22.

I always keep a low profile on Anzac day. While I won't tell others what to  do I can't bring myself to participate or wear a poppy.

[aardvarkash10 1,105]

He will have been in Italy at the same time and places as the Dad of a mate of mine - my parents were too young, my grandparents too old.  Mate's Dad gained medals for bravery, came back WITH the Italian bride, but was a pretty broken man with issues that haunted him all his life.

[twisty 176]

We will not cease is a remarkable book of a remarkable man. It was turned into a TV drama. It was also serialised on Nat Radio.  I believe, and so did most of the soldiers he was sent with, that he was the bravest one there. The soldiers loved him but the brass hated him because of the respect he had.

I was a good friend of Con Thode back in the day. His war stories were great to listen to after a few rums on the boat. As he got older he became a lot more emotional about the things they did (he was NZ's only submarine commander in the war)

I used to go to ANZAC days with him back then, to pay my respects to the soldiers who fought. I would like to think I would have the courage of Baxter, but I doubt it.

[Zozza 351]

My great uncle fought in Monte Cassino.  Never forget when he told me he was one second talking to his soldier mate right beside him, and looked away for a second and looked back, his mate was slumped backwards with a bullet in his head.

[harrytom 697]

11 hours ago, Black Panther said:

He seldom went near an RSA

And that was not uncommon.Many WW1/WW2 arrived back went to local RSA to be met by bullshit artists that had never left NZ. My Grandfather ,by all accounts,didnt finish his beer and never attened a Anzac day.  Severed as saddler in ww1 .

[Psyche 807]

WW1 was horrific, here's an interesting conversation, the French suffered 27,000 dead in a single day, one day! The Americans fought for only 3 months had 116,516 deaths- terrible, terrible numbers. The Germans 2,037,000, New Zealand casualties. 16,000 died and 41,000 New Zealand wounded out of around 98,000 servicemen- thats why we have war memorials in every town in NZ. It wasnt war- it was butchery and remember these were  teenagers and boys, look at your own children if you have teenagers; can you imagine sending them to the far side of the world to die for the empire?

What I see today is the romanticising of the war as memories fade by people who have never had a connection to war. Anzac day? That was an absolute feeding of boys into the meatgrinder and a total failure of leadership.   

 

 

[Steve Pope 253]

My father was on the SS Tahiti, which was taking Kiwi soldiers to England in 1918. He was one of the many who caught Spanish Flu after the Tahiti stopped in Africa on the way there, he was extremely ill and barely survived, many others died and were buried at sea very quickly because of the high temperatures. Luckily for most of the survivors the war ended while they were on Salisbury plain waiting to embark for Europe. He became a pacifist and was too old to be conscripted by the time WW2 started, He spent most of WW2 based at the submarine depot at Tikou bay in Akaroa harbour. He said they never had a submarine arrive in all the time he was there.

[harrytom 697]

Further to Grandfather who was at Galipoli,Transfered to the Royal navy as a volunteer at some stage,went in to zeebrugge harbour,sunk a lot of vessels then return 6 months later to clean up the mess they created,meanwhile his brother served in France,coped a couple in the back and left. 2 British Officers walking the trach noticed his slight movement and took him to a field hospital and sent to England where he spent the rest of the war as a butler for the officers..

Grandfather wanted to sign up for ww2 but told to old but you can join the home guard,with a 2 finger salute walked off . His actual civilian job was a tailor for Smith and Cauchy's New Market.Where by all accounts had a fiddle under the counter and made flounder nets.

The 3rd brother who never served but was told his role of station master was to valuable in case of invasion 

Have some sketchy copies of his diary here,sobering reading when spending the night on a ammunition barge off the Galipoli beach being pelleted by machine guns all night.Guess if it went up wouldnt of felt anything.. Going up the Dardinelles in convoy to watch the ship behind explode.

Asked my Farther about Grandfather but he said he very rarely spoke of the war,only the good things that took place.When you have canned ?? and the officers having silver side was go and steal it.

Left as a private promoted to corpral back to private and ended up 2nd reserve lieutenant.

Wifes father(Scottish)served in royal armoured division(tank driver) never spoke. No diary,nothing. WW2

May we/our Children or their Children's children never have to witness what those old boys have seen and taken to the grave with them. We still go past "A" bouy at Rangi light and a couple of rums for him.

[Black Panther 1,767]

I was telling older brother about this thread and he sent me this.  We think it was taken just before or just after El Alamein.

[waikiore 486]

Wow the resemblance is striking